Monday, October 11, 2010

Rooster on Apartheid Nostalgia

I've been threatening to repost something from the Rooster for some time now here it is. And he has a point. Delivered in the usual smart guy vs. straw man kind of way, yes, but a valid one nonetheless. Does anyone really want Apartheid back?

I'm quite sure our readership have a circumspect view on the subject, and given that it's never going to happen anyway, I would hazard a guess that the nostalgia is less for a repressive political system and more for the older, safer (at least for some) society.

We all the see the past through rose-tinted glasses, but nostalgia for the past should never be confused with a yearning for its return. Having an interest in Boer or Cape independence should not be confused with wanting a return to Apartheid.

You sometimes get the idea that some white South Africans think the country would be better if we still had apartheid. Well not to get into any of the usual race crap, here are a few things that would be sifferent if Apartheid never ended.

1) We would not be allowed to use the internet perhaps for anything but a few verkrampte government sanctioned sites, if at all.
2) We would not be allowed to have new technology mobile phones. Or perhaps for security reasons even any mobile phones.
3) No DSTV , or perhas even MNET.
4) Which wouldn't make much of a difference because we wouldn't be allowed to watch anything rated more than "A" or with slight political udnertones and there'd be no international sport for us anyway.
5) No travel abroad.
6) And for all the above reason we'd fall extremely behind in out competitiveness as a nation.
7 ) Little to no foriegn investment, or tourists adding to the collpaose of our economy.

I could honestly go on forever, but you don't need to really go any further to get the picture.

The end result of not ending apartheid when you basically think of it is this.

ZIM2.0

So next time you're feeling a little nostalgic for apartheid and bitching about the country on the internet. Stop to think about the irony for a second.

Last thought.

If you're living abroad and life is so wonderful. Why feel nostalgia for Apartheid ? And what's more, why hate the black people whose government made it possible for you to leave the country ? Could it be you're far more miserable than you might admit ?

he he

58 Opinion(s):

Piet said...

Rooster phantasized :

"1) We would not be allowed to use the internet perhaps for anything but a few verkrampte government sanctioned sites, if at all."

This is ridiculous; very few books were banned in SA. Lots of stupid leftist books were allowed. I studied at varsity in SA and we studied atheistic philosophic, all the existentialists (who are in total disrepute today in France for instance).

"2) We would not be allowed to have new technology mobile phones. Or perhaps for security reasons even any mobile phones."

Again, phones already existed under Apartheid, you know. What's the difference? Mobile phones are excellent security tracking devices, ideal for a police State, The Rooster.

"3) No DSTV , or perhas even MNET."

Ja, ja, ja. I'm sure sports are just terrible also. It's not the Apartheid regime that was opposed to broadcasting the Olympics, it was the outside world.

"4) Which wouldn't make much of a difference because we wouldn't be allowed to watch anything rated more than "A" or with slight political udnertones and there'd be no international sport for us anyway."

Pfff. Which A rate movie (good movie) were not available in SA in the 70s or the 80s? I saw all the classics in Pretoria (Ster-Kinekor), all the good TV series of the days (Tierbrigade [La brigade du Tigre], Beste Professor [The Paper Chase], Van der Valk, Blitspatrollie [Sweeney], etc.)

If we did not see something it was usually because Unions in England did not want us to see it [Lady D. marriage to Prince Charles and the choir refusing us to hear them, etc.]

Do you want to compare with the crap seen on so many TV channels or movie channels today?

"5) No travel abroad."

Plain silly. I travelled abroad under apartheid so did many of my friends. A lot to Europe.

And again, if there were limitations these were nearly all imposed upon SA, not the other way round.

"6) And for all the above reason we'd fall extremely behind in out competitiveness as a nation."

No, not reading Marxist prose, seeing crappy TV would not have been a reason to fall behind in competitiveness, but

i) sanctions were

ii) and so was the reliance on a lot of cheap labour (for immediate economical profit and political reasons since it lower unemployment among Blacks) instead of modernizing the tools and automating a lot.

"7 ) Little to no foriegn investment, or tourists adding to the collpaose of our economy."

Again sanctions imposed (The West feeling "guilty", not Apartheid by itself.

The West still feels guilty, that's why it let itself be invaded by immigrants in the last 40 years.

Piet said...

Rooster phantasized :

"1) We would not be allowed to use the internet perhaps for anything but a few verkrampte government sanctioned sites, if at all."

This is ridiculous; very few books were banned in SA. Lots of stupid leftist books were allowed. I studied at varsity in SA and we studied atheistic philosophic, all the existentialists (who are in total disrepute today in France for instance).

"2) We would not be allowed to have new technology mobile phones. Or perhaps for security reasons even any mobile phones."

Again, phones already existed under Apartheid, you know. What's the difference? Mobile phones are excellent security tracking devices, ideal for a police State, The Rooster.

"3) No DSTV , or perhas even MNET."

Ja, ja, ja. I'm sure sports are just terrible also. It's not the Apartheid regime that was opposed to broadcasting the Olympics, it was the outside world.

"4) Which wouldn't make much of a difference because we wouldn't be allowed to watch anything rated more than "A" or with slight political udnertones and there'd be no international sport for us anyway."

Pfff. Which A rate movie (good movie) were not available in SA in the 70s or the 80s? I saw all the classics in Pretoria (Ster-Kinekor), all the good TV series of the days (Tierbrigade [La brigade du Tigre], Beste Professor [The Paper Chase], Van der Valk, Blitspatrollie [Sweeney], etc.)

If we did not see something it was usually because Unions in England did not want us to see it [Lady D. marriage to Prince Charles and the choir refusing us to hear them, etc.]

Do you want to compare with the crap seen on so many TV channels or movie channels today?

Piet said...

"5) No travel abroad."

Plain silly. I travelled abroad under apartheid so did many of my friends. A lot to Europe.

And again, if there were limitations these were nearly all imposed upon SA, not the other way round.

"6) And for all the above reason we'd fall extremely behind in out competitiveness as a nation."

No, not reading Marxist prose, seeing crappy TV would not have been a reason to fall behind in competitiveness, but

i) sanctions were

ii) and so was the reliance on a lot of cheap labour (for immediate economical profit and political reasons since it lower unemployment among Blacks) instead of modernizing the tools and automating a lot.

"7 ) Little to no foriegn investment, or tourists adding to the collpaose of our economy."

Again sanctions imposed (The West feeling guilty), not Apartheid by itself.

The West still feels guilty, that's why it let itself be invaded in the last 40 years by Third World country immigrants.

Piet said...

The Rooster "thought":

>"Last thought."

Vanity.


>"If you're living abroad and life is so wonderful. Why feel nostalgia for Apartheid ? "

Because it was better than it is not now in SA. Logical, that's why we are no longer there, because there is no longer Apartheid.

>"And what's more, why hate the black people"

Who's speaking of hatred here? If not you: you caricature the past. You seem to hate it...

>"whose government made it possible for you to leave the country ?"

You are very funny. As if:

1) It could do otherwise when Whites were still holding a big part of the police and army.

2) Lots of whites had foreign passports.

3) The ANC Regime was propped by Western States who would not have allowed otherwise: Mandela was a Saint, the new SA a promise of hope, and end to racism, the advent of the Rainbow nation, Heaven on Earth and all the rest of the antiracist Heaven on Earth mythology for which sanctions were imposed.

4) Even Mugabe let the whites go away.

5) Less whites means more power for ANC friends.

>"Could it be you're far more miserable than you might admit ?"

Well, certainly not for the "reasons" you have outlined.

The only reason that more or less makes sense that you indirectly mentioned was "sanctions".

http://beta.mnet.co.za/carteblanche/Article.aspx?Id=4124&ShowId=1

"What does it mean for an old black woman to say that her life was better under apartheid? Now this is the crux of Jacob Dlamini's first book 'Native Nostalgia'.

Jenny Crwys-Williams (Carte Blanche guest presenter): 'What does it mean that black life under apartheid was not all doom and gloom and that there was a lot of which black South Africans could be and indeed were proud?'"

Exzanian said...

Not missing apartheid at all. Missing a "Heartland" with freedom of association without fear of being branded a racist. Also deeply resent having to imbibe a stone age culture in the name of "diversity" and PC sanitation.

Piet the pirate said...

As usual, rooster gets the bull by the tits. The article is so wrong on nearly every count.
It´s not apartheid per se that is missed.
It´s about being able to govern ourselves without having corrupt and inept boons pretending to understand what´s going on. It´s about a police force you can trust, a medical system that works, an education system like the one that gave our children a great start in this competitive world. It´s about living in a 1st, and not a 3rd world country.
These are the things we miss, not apartheid.
If this tit rooster really believes blacks were disadvantaged by being ruled by whites, then why does he now think the reverse, ie, blacks ruling whites, is any different?
Like the blacks in the past who objected to white rule, I object to black rule. What part of that is so hard to understand?

Exzanian said...

Funny how nobody is not commenting on the original post on Rooster's own blog...Ironic indeed. We give this strawman creep waaaaay too much oxygen on ILSA...

Andrea Muhrrteyn said...

Well said Piet.

Not going to regurgitate, but for example. I remember watching the commie movie REDS at my high school during APARTHEID. It was NOT BANNED.

I also remember travelling; while it was difficult, I couldn't go to any African countries, but I was welcome in Seychelles.. and as long as i did my paperwork in the UK etc...

There's plenty more to show Rooster sucking his thumb...

... I wish the Apartheid politicians had woken up and sorted the country into total different ethnic volkstaats, and seceded and gave the others their indepence.. but they were greedy and wanted to rule it all.

And frankly I ain't got a problem with censoring or banning pornography. In New SA, they allow prisoners in prison to watch pornography. You needn't wonder what gang-rapists force otehrs to watch; do you?

Apartheid was by no means perfect.. but given a volkstaat, it would also not be perfect, but it sure would not be the western hellhole of consumerism and whoredom soddom and ghomoorah and I am not even religious.

Islandshark said...

Rooster = BC2. No matter what perspective you have or what approach you take, you know it is going to end with attempts of their illogical, biased, warped views of the world being forced down your throat.

The only purpose they serve on this blog is to erode credibility. Which is the way of the radical-left liberal. And socialist. And Marxist.

The Rooster said...

Piet, dude. Why do you post over and over the same thing ? Someone explain to him it's not that they won't get posted, he needs to wait for moderation first. Sheesh.

To respond to a few statements.

______________-

It´s about living in a 1st, and not a 3rd world country.
----------------


Huh ? When the freak were we a first world country ? When only 30% of our people had electricity and running water ? When 80% of them didn't have the right to get a matric education or vote ? Wgere most babies weren't even born in a hospital ?


Drop that stupid line once and for all. It shows total ignorance.

The Rooster said...

These are the things we miss, not apartheid.
-------------

Those things were because of apartheid. Only because of apartheid can you live in africa and have it so good you think you're living in a first world country while 80% of people suffer.

-----------------------
If this tit rooster really believes blacks were disadvantaged by being ruled by whites, then why does he now think the reverse, ie, blacks ruling whites, is any different?
------------------------

Well for one , unlike whites did for blacks, blacks let me vote, keep my land , own a business, get an education, have freedom of speach etc etc ...that's the difference. Must I go on ?

-------------------
Like the blacks in the past who objected to white rule, I object to black rule. What part of that is so hard to understand?

---------------

Except now it's not black rule. It's majority rule. There's nothing stopping you getting voted in to lead the country as a white except for one thing...want to know what that is ?

The fact that last time we did such a fucking horrible evil job of it ! Who would trust us now ?

I defend your right to leave South Africa, but don't begrudge a black person the right to defend himself against the abuse we forced upon them.

Laager said...

Seems like Rooster ended up in the Q that issued the stupid gene.

Like the other writers say - missing apartheid/segregation is not the issue

Missing competent Government and service delivery IS the issue

Enjoy your la-la-land paradise whilst the funds last Rooster. When they dry up, unlike Zimbabwe there will be nowhere further south to run to for survival/help/support. Survival of the fittest will be the order of the day. Hope your 45 is oiled, loaded, cocked and ready for action. You are going to need it.

It amazes me that you are unable to see the inevitable consequences of this rampant theft that is bleeding the country dry.

Viking said...

Yes, he is BC's feathered twin for sure, but I suppose it makes discussion more interesting when there's someone to disagree with. Good for the brain, and all that. Having said that, yes, if the repetition gets too much and the patronising continues it will just erode peoples' interest.

I say give 'em enough rope to hang themselves.

The Rooster said...

Not missing apartheid at all. Missing a "Heartland" with freedom of association without fear of being branded a racist. Also deeply resent having to imbibe a stone age culture in the name of "diversity" and PC sanitation.

--------------

I know you love South Africa. Deeply. Can't you just love your culture and keep it to yourself like the rest of us ? Does it have to be us versus them ? It's a big country. There's space for all of us to be ourselves while still united behind the common enemies : Crime, corruption, poverty and disease ?

You're not a bad bloke. I think you've seen the light in some sense.

The Rooster said...

Not going to regurgitate, but for example. I remember watching the commie movie REDS at my high school during APARTHEID. It was NOT BANNED.

I also remember travelling; while it was difficult, I couldn't go to any African countries, but I was welcome in Seychelles.. and as long as i did my paperwork in the UK etc...

There's plenty more to show Rooster sucking his thumb...


----------------

I wrote that post in like 5 seconds. Of course there are some technicalities I wofted over. But do you really think apartheid could have thrived if we were allowed to use the internet ? Where people could orginise and read things that the government didn't want us to see ? Of course not. SThey would have had to ban the internet and mobile phones (that could use the net) and satelite tv (or at leats 99% of the stations) etc


Now imagine being a modern company who couldn't use the net or keep up with modern pop culture ? How could we remain relevant and competitive ? We'd fall behind and become a nothing nation. As we see today gold is only 14% of our gdp. You think we'd still be better off if it was 50% ? Apartheid would have ruined us beyond the scope of what the A.N.C ever could.

The Rooster said...

Yes, he is BC's feathered twin for sure, but I suppose it makes discussion more interesting when there's someone to disagree with. Good for the brain, and all that. Having said that, yes, if the repetition gets too much and the patronising continues it will just erode peoples' interest.

I say give 'em enough rope to hang themselves.

---------------

I try not to be patronising with your specific blog as you make some attempts, however token, to go flat out rabid with the racial stuff. But sometimes it's difficult when people say things like "We once were a first world country."

Anonymous said...

Apartheid was just a convenient scapegoat. The gloablaists wanted control over South Africa and this was the easiest way.

Treacle Bender said...

oh piss off directionless chicken lickin....you remind me of an annoying little chihuahua…constantly nipping at peoples ankles….shoo shoo!.......your dad needs you at home, he’s counting children…

ignore the confused cock and hopefully he’ll get the hint and leave…

Andrea Muhrrteyn said...

Rooster, [1/2]

By Gedaliah Brauns definition of a racist (), you would qualify for that term.

About the poor blacks we treated so bad... It appears you don't do much to educate yourself about a multitude of perspectives, so you can get a balanced fully-informed view of any issue:

In Dr. Gedaliah Braun's book, Racism, Guilt, Self-Hatred and Self Deceipt: A Philosophers Hard Headed Look at the Dark Continent, he travels through SA to enquire from blacks whether they prefer black or white rule. By far the majority preferred white Apartheid rule, bad as it was, because they feared their own blacks would treat them worse. They cite the reasons for their participating in protests as fear for the 'Necklace Street Committees'

Here is an excerpt of one ladies views:

During the month I spent in South Africa in January 1986, I took every opportunity to ask blacks what they thought about black vs. white rule (etc.). Almost without exception they said they did not want black rule and for the same reasons: the white man was cleverer and more honest.

The most memorable conversation was with a young woman taking a computer course in central Jo¬hannes¬burg.

At first she expressed a noted hostility towards whites, saying she hated white peo¬ple. All whites? I asked. No, just the Boers (Afrikaners). All Boers? No, just those who hated blacks. So what appeared an extreme view turned out to be quite reasonable: hating those you think hate you.

Nevertheless, there was this antagonism towards whites and so I said to her, ‘You must be anx¬ious to see an end to white rule’. Her answer? ‘No way!’ She didn’t want black rule? Not at all. Why not? Her answer, al¬most word for word: ‘The white man knows the difference between right and wrong and will usually do the right thing. The black man also knows the difference but will usually do the wrong thing!’. And as I heard these words I knew I would not soon for¬get them
.

Andrea Muhrrteyn said...

Rooster [2/2]

As for your White Guilt and Horrific Bias, whereby you expect whites to live upto a far higher standard than blacks (perhaps because like the ultimate hypocrit bigot, you really don't think blacks are capable of living upto the same standard as whites, but you lack the integrity to be honest with them, and provide them honest feedback, about your views)...

You clearly are totaly ignorant of: Did ‘Evil Apartheid’ raise Black living standards to Highest in Africa? (excerpt):
-------------------

59. Although Verwoerd’s Apartheid “launched the greatest programme of socio-economic upliftment for non-whites that South Africa had ever seen,”[163] which raised poor blacks living standards to the highest in Africa[164], granting them greater self-determination under Afrikaners[165], than other minority black tribes in Africa enjoyed under majority black rule. This did not sit well with the OAU, who founded the OAU Liberation Committee, to assist in “forging an international consensus against apartheid.”[166] It claims it was devoted to eradicating all traces of colonialism to benefit Africans ‘self determination’; but it “rejected post-independence claims to self-determination in Biafra, Katanga, southern Sudan, Shaba and Eritrea”[167], and the Sahrawi people’s right to self determination[168]. The OAU’s collective effort to rid Africa of apartheid meant it “played an influential role in the UN to ensure an arms embargo, economic sanctions, condemnation of South Africa’s main trade partners and the non-recognition of the “homelands”.”[169](own emphasis)

60. In 1961, then foreign minister of SA, Eric Louw presented to the UN a factual comparison of the living conditions of blacks in South Africa compared to other African states. He proved that Blacks in SA had a higher per capita income, better educational opportunities[170], far superior medical and social services and altogether a higher standard of living than anywhere in Africa. In response, the OAU engineered a motion of censure against him (first of its kind) and his speech was struck from the record. Even “The Washington Post”, who regularly criticized South Africa, noted:

“Nothing that South Africa has done and nothing that its representatives said, justified the mob-like censure which the United Nations visited upon that country and its Foreign Minister, Mr Eric Louw.”

61. Opening Pandora’s Apartheid Box – Part 9 – The lies about the Townships, Mike Smith Political Commentary: “At the height of Apartheid in 1978 Soweto had 115 Football fields, 3 Rugby fields, 4 athletic tracks, 11 Cricket fields, 2 Golf courses, 47 Tennis courts, 7 swimming pools built to Olympic standards, 5 Bowling alleys, 81 Netball fields, 39 children play parks, and countless civic halls, movie houses and clubhouses. In addition to this, Soweto had 300 churches, 365 schools, 2 Technical Colleges, 8 clinics, 63 child day care centres, 11 Post Offices, & its own fruit and vegetable market. There were 2300 registered companies that belonged to black businessmen, about 1000 private taxi companies. 3% of the 50,000 vehicle owners in 1978 were Mercedes Benz owners. Soweto alone had more cars, taxis, schools, churches and sport facilities than most independent countries in Africa. The Blacks of South Africa had more private vehicles than the entire white population of the USSR at the time.”

The Rooster said...

Missing competent Government and service delivery IS the issue


--------------------

Forgive me but on behalf of 80% of the people during Apartheid they might want to know "What service delivery?"

At least now they get electricity, clinics, RDP housing, garbage collection, a better share of government resources such as state hospitals, social grants etc. You can meber milk a countries resources for 10% of the people and validate that as fair. Why do you support this massive systematic thievery whites were doing, then in the next sentence lose your mind when SOME blacks are doing some petty thievery in government ? Could it be because you're white ?

There's no ethical defence of your position at all !

The Rooster said...

During the month I spent in South Africa in January 1986, I took every opportunity to ask blacks what they thought about black vs. white rule (etc.). Almost without exception they said they did not want black rule and for the same reasons: the white man was cleverer and more honest.


--------------

Yeah that's why almost 100% voted for the black A.N.C and continue to do so....they just loved white rule. Excuse me , but what a crock !

Another post that makes it hard for me to not be condescending.

The Rooster said...

At first she expressed a noted hostility towards whites, saying she hated white peo¬ple. All whites? I asked. No, just the Boers (Afrikaners). All Boers? No, just those who hated blacks. So what appeared an extreme view turned out to be quite reasonable: hating those you think hate you.
--------------------

Well that's a large part of what my old blog is about. Holding a mirror to whites actions to they can understand the perspective of blacks, and why blacks resent/hate them. If ever we're going to stop hating itself, the gesture must come from those who did the oppression. Not those who were abused.


That's where isreal/palenstein conflict fails. Israel expects Palenstein to "behave" before they get treated like humans. And Palenstein expects Israel to treat them like humans before they "behave". Round and round. So stupid.

Can't we learn from our mistakes ? I don't respect all black people I deal with everyday. but by treating them with the usual social respect a human being could expect I'm widely loved by the black community. For that small gesture alone.

We can continue to be condescending assholes to black people until the cows come home. all we're doing is keeping the flames of conflict going. And it's the rhetoric of your brother sites like sasucks that lead to more farm deaths and make people like julius malema exist,than do any good. To stop being hated, we must learn humility. Not self loathing, just simple human humility.

Piet the pirate said...

The Rooster said...@
Piet, dude. Why do you post over and over the same thing ? Someone explain to him it's not that they won't get posted, he needs to wait for moderation first. Sheesh.

To respond to a few statements.

It´s about living in a 1st, and not a 3rd world country.
----------------

Huh ? When the freak were we a first world country ? When only 30% of our people had electricity and running water ? When 80% of them didn't have the right to get a matric education or vote ? Were most babies weren't even born in a hospital ?
Drop that stupid line once and for all. It shows total ignorance.
-----------------
LOL.
Firstly cock, Piet and Piet the Pirate are two different posters. Thought I´d point that out.
Secondly, I´m not sure where you were living during apartheid, but it couldn´t have been SA. If you were living here you would have seen the infrastructure in the country was on a par with most European countries. Our roads were modern, pothole free and maintained to the highest standards. Our rail network was one of the best in the world. Our harbours were modern and sophisticated, and our airports the same. Our communications network actually worked and we never had to worry about power outs. Our medical expertise ranked right up there with the very best in the world, as Dr Barnard proved when he performed the first successful heart transplant, and our educational facilities were on a par with anything Europe or America had to offer.
Yes, a large percentage of the population still had to be brought into the system, but you first have to create a system before you can accommodate everyone, and as only 20% of the population were creating from scratch for the non creative 80%, is it surprising that after barely 100 years, most of them still had to be brought into the system?
You seem to forget, it was the white man who built this land, not the blacks. Oh sure, they contributed with their labour, but without the white mans initiative there wouldn´t have been anything to begin with.
With regards to the land, vast areas of the country were set aside so that blacks who wanted to continue their former life styles were free to do so. The majority still lived in rural areas, so it´s not surprising they were still without electricity or often very far from facilities such as hospitals.
Was apartheid perfect? Hell no, but it was a fuck side better than we have now. Simply exchanging it has not resulted in an improvement. On the contrary, it has created the exact scenario we were trying to avoid, and instead of continual progress, we are now slipping back into the abyss the white man realised was there, but which, apparently, the black man can´t even see.
Your arguments are the typical liberal nonsense I thought I´d left behind me in vasity. You really should grow up.

Piet the pirate said...

The Rooster said...@
Piet, dude. Why do you post over and over the same thing ? Someone explain to him it's not that they won't get posted, he needs to wait for moderation first. Sheesh.

To respond to a few statements.

It´s about living in a 1st, and not a 3rd world country.
----------------

Huh ? When the freak were we a first world country ? When only 30% of our people had electricity and running water ? When 80% of them didn't have the right to get a matric education or vote ? Were most babies weren't even born in a hospital ?
Drop that stupid line once and for all. It shows total ignorance.
-----------------
LOL.
Firstly cock, Piet and Piet the Pirate are two different posters. Thought I´d point that out.
Secondly, I´m not sure where you were living during apartheid, but it couldn´t have been SA. If you were living here you would have seen the infrastructure in the country was on a par with most European countries. Our roads were modern, pothole free and maintained to the highest standards. Our rail network was one of the best in the world. Our harbours were modern and sophisticated, and our airports the same. Our communications network actually worked and we never had to worry about power outs. Our medical expertise ranked right up there with the very best in the world, as Dr Barnard proved when he performed the first successful heart transplant, and our educational facilities were on a par with anything Europe or America had to offer.
Yes, a large percentage of the population still had to be brought into the system, but you first have to create a system before you can accommodate everyone, and as only 20% of the population were creating from scratch for the non creative 80%, is it surprising that after barely 100 years, most of them still had to be brought into the system?
You seem to forget, it was the white man who built this land, not the blacks. Oh sure, they contributed with their labour, but without the white mans initiative there wouldn´t have been anything to begin with.
With regards to the land, vast areas of the country were set aside so that blacks who wanted to continue their former life styles were free to do so. The majority still lived in rural areas, so it´s not surprising they were still without electricity or often very far from facilities such as hospitals.
Was apartheid perfect? Hell no, but it was a fuck side better than we have now. Simply exchanging it has not resulted in an improvement. On the contrary, it has created the exact scenario we were trying to avoid, and instead of continual progress, we are now slipping back into the abyss the white man realised was there, but which, apparently, the black man can´t even see.

Piet the pirate said...

The Rooster said..

To respond to a few statements.

It´s about living in a 1st, and not a 3rd world country.
----------------

Huh ? When the freak were we a first world country ? When only 30% of our people had electricity and running water ? When 80% of them didn't have the right to get a matric education or vote ? Were most babies weren't even born in a hospital ?
Drop that stupid line once and for all. It shows total ignorance.
-----------------
LOL.
Firstly cock, Piet and Piet the Pirate are two different posters. Thought I´d point that out.
Secondly, I´m not sure where you were living during apartheid, but it couldn´t have been SA. If you were living here you would have seen the infrastructure in the country was on a par with most European countries. Our roads were modern, pothole free and maintained to the highest standards. Our rail network was one of the best in the world. Our harbours were modern and sophisticated, and our airports the same. Our communications network actually worked and we never had to worry about power outs. Our medical expertise ranked right up there with the very best in the world, as Dr Barnard proved when he performed the first successful heart transplant, and our educational facilities were on a par with anything Europe or America had to offer.
Yes, a large percentage of the population still had to be brought into the system, but you first have to create a system before you can accommodate everyone, and as only 20% of the population were creating from scratch for the non creative 80%, is it surprising that after barely 100 years, most of them still had to be brought into the system?
You seem to forget, it was the white man who built this land, not the blacks. Oh sure, they contributed with their labour, but without the white mans initiative there wouldn´t have been anything to begin with.
With regards to the land, vast areas of the country were set aside so that blacks who wanted to continue their former life styles were free to do so. The majority still lived in rural areas, so it´s not surprising they were still without electricity or often very far from facilities such as hospitals.
Was apartheid perfect? Hell no, but it was a fuck side better than we have now. Simply exchanging it has not resulted in an improvement. On the contrary, it has created the exact scenario we were trying to avoid, and instead of continual progress, we are now slipping back into the abyss the white man realised was there, but which, apparently, the black man can´t even see

Piet the pirate said...

I´ve just had my post rejected for being too long.
I re-tried several times, which is probably what Piet (not me BTW) did. Maybe they still got through, so if mine now appear in triplicate, you will know why. LOL.

The Rooster said...

Secondly, I´m not sure where you were living during apartheid, but it couldn´t have been SA. If you were living here you would have seen the infrastructure in the country was on a par with most European countries.

---------------

Excuse me ? Did you ever go in the transkei for example ? No potholes ? Haahahahahahahaha !

I know what there wasn't. TAR ! And electricity ! And functioning hospitals and clinics ! That's how 80% of oru people lived ! How could you possibly say that was first world ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

The Rooster said...

Our rail network was one of the best in the world. Our harbours were modern and sophisticated, and our airports the same. Our communications network actually worked and we never had to worry about power outs.

---------------

The railways system was mostly decrepit by 1994.I don't know what's meant to be wrong with our harbours and airports, they function at far highly volumes than apartheid. Also which airport isn't better now than in 1994 ?

And sure we didn't have to worry about power outs (myth actually, my power went out just as often due to a thunder storm etc)....hardly anyone had fucking power ! About 30% of all people !

First world ?

Bwahahahahahahaha !

The Rooster said...

Our medical expertise ranked right up there with the very best in the world, as Dr Barnard proved when he performed the first successful heart transplant, and our educational facilities were on a par with anything Europe or America had to offer.


----------------


for 10 % of the population ! Imagine the U.S boasting they were first world if only 105 of the population could get first world medical care or education ?


------------------

Yes, a large percentage of the population still had to be brought into the system, but you first have to create a system before you can accommodate everyone, and as only 20% of the population were creating from scratch for the non creative 80%, is it surprising that after barely 100 years, most of them still had to be brought into the system?


--------------


You didn't want them as part of the system apart from digging out their own gold for your profits and cleaning your houses. Don't bullshit me man. I know the attitude of the average whitey during apartheid. Get your head out of your bum. We weren't trying to get blacks into the system ! We were spending all our money on armies to keep them out !

The Rooster said...

You seem to forget, it was the white man who built this land, not the blacks. Oh sure, they contributed with their labour, but without the white mans initiative there wouldn´t have been anything to begin with.


----------------

More like the Englishman, Boers were living in houses with dung for walls living off dried meat and potatoes when the brits came here and started the industrialisation. Fuck all "white" about who built south africa. It was all copied from technologies developed and imported from Europe and built with black cheap labour. The local "whites" were bronze age thinkers at best.

The Rooster said...

With regards to the land, vast areas of the country were set aside so that blacks who wanted to continue their former life styles were free to do so. The majority still lived in rural areas, so it´s not surprising they were still without electricity or often very far from facilities such as hospitals.
Was apartheid perfect? Hell no, but it was a fuck side better than we have now.

--------------


Are you serious ? It was better ?

listen asshole...

1) 80% of people now have electricity and running water.
2) Everyones income (inflation taken into consideration) has increased hugely
3) Murder is down 50% since 1994.
4) The middle classed has more than doubled.


continue..

The Rooster said...

5) the lives of even the very poor has improved dramatically. Over 10 million more now live in concrete houses compared to mud huts or tin shacks.

6) Wait for my new site. I have lots of interviews. These people used to live off maize meal and bones and wear any old tattered clothes they could find. Life was only about survival and hunger was common.

Now days even the poor survive well enough to concern themselves with things like fashion and food preferences. Things you take for granted. They all have access to tv's and public transpot and are aware of the world. The staple diet for even those surviving off social grants has become bread, pasta, rice and potatoes and chicken. More than only the lucky ones own fucking shoes now you callous twat ! It's my business to know what these people eat and wear.

Sorry for my heated tone, but you just have no fucking clue how people used to suffer compared to now.

The Rooster said...

I can carry on giving you anecdotal real life examples of how peoples lives are so much better now than before. But why don't you just go ask someone. Go find a black person living in a township now and ask them.

A few suggestions of questions. in your townships...

1) What did people eat before 1994. what do they eat now ? what's better ?
2) how often did they get new clothes ? how often now ? What's better ?
3) Did people have electricity then ? Or brick houses ? How about now ?
4) Did they have clinics then ? how about now ? what's better ?
5) Did they have human rights then ? How about now ? what's better ?
6) Did people have tv's then ? what about now ? what's better ?
7) did more or less people have jobs then ? what about now ? what's better ?
8) did many people have cars then ? what about now ? what's better ?

Must I carry on ? please go do it. and once you have I hope you have an ounce of decency to never be so callous as to piss on the suffering people went through in this country.

When you're sitting outside in the grass and grateful just that there's something inside you to shit, then you come back and tell me you udnerstand something about what;s better ok ?

The Rooster said...

I feel I have presented a very powerful argument. It will be a test to see if it's posted.

I think what people need to do is start to get this simple idea in their head. The old South Africa was better for some white people. End of story. For the rest of us it was a terrible system. And those whites are in the minority as most whites today benefit by have an emerging middle class to sell to, and the freedoms of being able to trade on the world market, and express themselves freely etc.

Cold Turkey said...

@ Rooster

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts wouldn't we all have a merry Christmas?

If Apartheid... blah blah blah
How come that apartheid did not prevent Indians from building their own schools and running thriving businesses? Some Indians were already driving Ferraris back in the sixties! On the contrary what have your noble savages done to earn their current so called "freedom"? Your black buddies were instead burning down schools, killing, maiming, raping and blowing up innocent people in the name of what? Your perverted empathy has created this "culture of entitlement" among your noble savages who now think they must be compensated for everything because of apartheid. During apartheid whites were not given houses for free. Education was not free either. Not everybody could afford to go to university.

Yours is just ridiculous speculative drivel and leftist propaganda and just shows your inability to provide solid arguments. You are a con-artist of note and thanks to people like you who that our society has no moral standards or principles.

Fuck you rooster!

Andrea Muhrrteyn said...

My part 2/2 never came through? So posting it again...

Excerpts from Did ‘Evil Apartheid’ raise Black living standards to Highest in Africa?:

60. In 1961, then foreign minister of SA, Eric Louw presented to the UN a factual comparison of the living conditions of blacks in South Africa compared to other African states. He proved that Blacks in SA had a higher per capita income, better educational opportunities[170], far superior medical and social services and altogether a higher standard of living than anywhere in Africa.
Opening Pandora’s Apartheid Box – Part 11– Bantu Education under Apartheid, by Mike Smith,: “Since 1970 the budget for black education was raised by about 30% per year every year. More than any other government department. In the period 1955 -1984 the amount of black school students increased 31 times from 35,000 to 1,096 000. 65% of black South African children were at school compared to Egypt 64%, Nigeria 57%, Ghana52%, Tanzania50% and Ethiopia 29%. Amongst the adults of South Africa, 71% could read and write (80% between the ages 12 and 22). Compare this to Kenya 47%, Egypt 38%, Nigeria 34% and Mozambique at 26%. In South Africa, the whites built 15 new classrooms for blacks every working day, every year. At 40 children per class it meant space for an additional 600 black students every day!!!”

Opening Pandora’s Apartheid Box – Part 9 – The lies about the Townships, Mike Smith Political Commentary: “At the height of Apartheid in 1978 Soweto had 115 Football fields, 3 Rugby fields, 4 athletic tracks, 11 Cricket fields, 2 Golf courses, 47 Tennis courts, 7 swimming pools built to Olympic standards, 5 Bowling alleys, 81 Netball fields, 39 children play parks, and countless civic halls, movie houses and clubhouses. In addition to this, Soweto had 300 churches, 365 schools, 2 Technical Colleges, 8 clinics, 63 child day care centres, 11 Post Offices, & its own fruit and vegetable market. There were 2300 registered companies that belonged to black businessmen, about 1000 private taxi companies. 3% of the 50,000 vehicle owners in 1978 were Mercedes Benz owners. Soweto alone had more cars, taxis, schools, churches and sport facilities than most independent countries in Africa. The Blacks of South Africa had more private vehicles than the entire white population of the USSR at the time.”

Andrea Muhrrteyn said...

Rooster...

You really should give yourself an education about how black folk really think.... instead of peddling your white guilt crap.

You are far more of a bigot than any right winger, for (a) you think blacks are incapable of living up to white man's standards, and instead of being honest with them, you demand that white man lowers the standards for blacks.

Dr. Braun's had black girlfriends for the last 20 years odd. Spends plenty time with black folk having very blunt conversations (unlike your PC crap)... Here another excerpt from his book which is filled with stories such as this:

---------------
I had a conversation (September 1989) with a black woman who was supposed to work for me on a Wednesday and only showed up two days later. Wednesday, she says – a (white) election day – was a ‘stayaway’: if the ‘comrades’ saw you coming from town you would be beaten. Was it true that women were made to walk naked down the street? Yes, she said; they could also cut off your ear, and say ‘Give this to your mas¬ter; you don’t listen to me!’.

These people, she said, wanted freedom in town (‘white’ Johannesburg), but in the townships they beat any¬one who ‘disobeyed’. In other words, they want to be treated (by whites) as whites treat each other – under the rule of law – but quickly forget about these ‘freedoms’ where they hold sway.

So why is everyone saying blacks want black rule? Well, she said, they would like to ‘share’ it. But once these thugs get a taste of power they will want it all. She laughed; ‘of course’. Then why does everyone keep saying that blacks want a black government? It was the same fear, she said, that makes them afraid to violate the stay¬away.

I asked if she’d ever had such a conversation with any white man before. She laughed again. ‘No, no.’ Nor would she have it with blacks. The media reports millions of blacks protesting (white) elec-tions because they couldn’t vote, when the reality – as the media must know – is that they are simply terrorized.

Andrea Muhrrteyn said...

About Ciskei.. Abathembu's support Secession; ‘Things Much Better Under Apartheid...’?

Excerpt from: Why is the Transkei collapsing? An open letter from Mbulelo Ncedana to Nelson Mandela:

I subsequently attended a community meeting on 28/12/09 where we received a report of the situation in the area from the headman..... I heard things I thought I'll never hear again; old people, with rheumy eyes, saying things were much better under the Bantustan government.....

.... In our town of Umtata, the former capital and our pride, robots are forever not working because there's hardly any electricity most of the time; those that work are dysfunctional causing many to make accidents. As the results no one follows the traffic rules any longer.

Potholes are like dongas in the suburban areas. The twenty five litre plastic containers have become a necessary household material because the availability of water, in town, is arbitrary.

I ask what went wrong? During the time K.D. Mathandzima was the Prime Minister, and even during the military tenure of Bantu Holomisa, the town was very beautiful, fully maintained and clean. People had jobs. Then factories that created them closed down after 1994, because they were no longer subsidized and so could no longer cope with the competition from China, India, etc.

.... In conclusion, tata, I hope my letter does not upset you too much, but sometimes we need to take toll and assume responsibilities for our failures. We've failed our people. There's no other way of looking at it. I don't see the bunch that came after you doing things better, instead things seem to be going from bad to worse.

The Rooster said...

60. In 1961, then foreign minister of SA, Eric Louw presented to the UN a factual comparison of the living conditions of blacks in South Africa compared to other African states. He proved that Blacks in SA had a higher per capita income, better educational opportunities[170], far superior medical and social services and altogether a higher standard of living than anywhere in Africa.


--------------

Ignoring the fact that it was all propoganda bullshit let's assume this was the case in 1961. Then they must have spent the next 30 years fucking up their lives because there is no way in hell blacks in South Africa were better of that the rest of Africa.

The Rooster said...

You lot can carry on all day quoting apartheid propoganda drivel. I'm not buying any crap invented to present it as if life for blacks in south Africa was so rosy. Give the utopia you describe in Soweto 1978 I'm amazed they were finding time to riot inbetween all being wealthy mercedes owners and syncronised swimmers.Lol. the streets were paved with gold for them by the caring, so considerate black loving philanthropists of the National Party by the sounds of you lot.

Bwahahahahahahah

The Rooster said...

.... In our town of Umtata, the former capital and our pride, robots are forever not working because there's hardly any electricity most of the time; those that work are dysfunctional causing many to make accidents. As the results no one follows the traffic rules any longer.


--------------


I can confirm that Umtata is up to shit and has been for many, many years. But the rest of the Transkei is booming including the main roads now being excellent (god help you go through the kei cuttings 15 years ago). You see modern western houses everywhere instead of mud rondavels (literally) all served with electricity, clinics, running water etc. Apparnetly they are also making a bypass via umtata now and are at least getting some of the issues there sorted out.

As a regular traveller to the trankei throughout my life I can confirm its a billion times better off in a good way than before. While of course still full of problems.

Jim Beam said...

@Rooster

Yes you have presented a very powerful argument, however I think you have done far more than that. You have highlighted the inequities of people who I dare say try to compare aparthied with the ANC's maladministration. If you note most of the arguments on the internet is about the justification of aparthied. I personally find it reprehensable.

When you do present a picture of the opposite side of the fence posters get personal and start name calling. I like Mike Smith's reference to me on SA Sucks as a 'fucking mudsucking hotnot'.

You cannot argue with nostalgia.

Islandshark said...

@ Jim: Why don't you take whatever Mike Smith called you on SAS up with him there?

Viking said...

I think comparing system A with system B distorts the issue. We should be comparing what exists now with C -what we would like to exist now, in my opinion. It's difficult because we have only experienced A and B, and not C.
Personally I think B compares a lot worse to C than to A, but that's just me.

does that make any sense?

Andrea Muhrrteyn said...

I don't think arguing on behalf of the truth about apartheid is reprehensible at all whatsoever.

Verwoerd and Malan et al, and their supporters were petrified of the black breeding war swart gevaar; and wanted to maintain a system where they could rule themselves. They made mistakes sure.

Imagine if blacks had chosen to adopt a cultural trait of personal responsibility and concern for their children, whereby they refrained from procreation until they could provide for a stable and loving environment for their offspring in a small committed family environment. If so, South Africa would currently be populated by 10 million predominantly educated citizens, 50% white & 50% black and coloured, most of whom had grown up in loving small family homes, with responsible parents.

Or, imagine if Nelson Mandela and blacks had focussed their energies on educating blacks on getting an education, a loving partner prior to procreating; saving money so as to concentrate wealth for the future of your family, etc.

Instead what did Nelson, Tutu, et al do? They called for a slave and cannon fodder breeding war!

According to Witchcraft and the State in South Africa, by Johannes Harnischfeger:

**Especially evening assemblies girls had to attend as well: “They would come into the house and tell us we should go. They didn't ask your mother they just said ‘come let's go.’ You would just have to go with them. They would threaten you with their belts and ultimately you would think that if you refused, they would beat you. Our parents were afraid of them” (quoted by Delius 1996:189).
All those opposing the wishes of the young men were reminded, that it was every woman’s obligation to give birth to new “soldiers”, in order to replace those warriors killed in the liberation struggle. The idiom of the adolescents referred to these patriotic efforts as “operation production”. Because of exactly this reason it was forbidden for the girls to use contraceptives. (Delius 1996:189; Niehaus 1999:250) ***

Any honest person who has done an enquiry into the population policy foundational motivations for apartheid, which loomed hugely on Verwoerd's minds (who were honest and intelligent politicians very aware of the horrific ecological and economic consequences of the population production of poverty breeding behaviour; unlike our current poverty pimp politicians).. and you are not politically correct, cognisant of Just War International Law, etc. and willing to call the shots based on the evidence... can only come to one conclusion:

Apartheid was a Just War for Afrikaner Demographic Survival from the Marxist Swart Gevaar

@ Jim Beam, would you prefer Mike be honest with you about his opinion, or keep his honest opinon to himself (a secret) and pretend to you about what he thinks of you?

Personally I prefer someone to be brutally honest with me, then I know where I stand. If there is anything I can't stand it is two-faced deceiving manipulating hypocrites, who say one thing to your face, while thinking another in their head.

Piet the pirate said...

One question to the cock...........
If apartheid was so bad, why would white South Africans accept the same condions without blinking an eye. You know, our own homeland?
YES PLEASE.
Now fuck off idiot.
Please mods, don´t give this moron any more time on here.

Islandshark said...

Yeah, that world-class electrified fence on the old Transvaal border was erected to keep poor oppressed blacks in South Africa under Apartheid - not at all preventing blacks from the rest of Africa streaming into the "evil Apartheid land".

I wonder what happened in the 80s when influx control was relaxed and eventually abolished?

Sean said...

So let me get this right Rooster. Because I am white it is perfectly acceptable to discriminated against when applying for a job, or owning a business? (How is this any different to apartheid). This after I had absolutely nothing to do with. Also why must my hard earned tax money go to support a president (whom I did not vote for) who can't keep his dick in his pants? Again why must this money be used to support someone who is not prepared to lift a finger and do something called work? All the while services are degrading due to a lack of funds. Oh and please explain how some "friends" of special people (aka government) make billions in a matter of couple of years? To me it takes decades and loads to hard work to accomplish this. All the while these champions of the poor live a life of luxury right in front of their poor supporters (a certain someone having a R750 bottle of champagne while giving his supporters water and a banana). Or wait, what about the arms deal.... those submarines and jets are most certainly helping the poor (or should that be Schabir Shaik, et al). But wait those luxury cars (2 for each you know), are most certainly helping the poor!

Oh and by the way apartheid was just plain wrong!

Ah the joys of living in some la la land!

Piet said...

@Jim bean who wrote:

"You cannot argue with nostalgia."

You mean history, I suppose.

It is true, it's easier to say that today is better, when every attempt to prove the opposite is labelled "nostalgia" and henceforth dismissed.

You say you win by decreeing that every historically arguments against you is simply invalid, it's "nostalgia".

Piet said...

@The rooster who wrote

"Ignoring the fact that it was all propoganda bullshit let's assume this was the case in 1961. Then they must have spent the next 30 years fucking up their lives because there is no way in hell blacks in South Africa were better of that the rest of Africa."

When? And by what objective measure?

Have you ever visited the Congo? Benin ? Cameroon ? Mali ?

I have. Blacks in the 1980s in SA were living better *objectively* : life expectancy, education, income, etc.

The Rooster, please supply numbers and stop just dismissing arguments as "propaganda".

Piet said...

@The Rooster who insisted

"for 10 % of the population ! Imagine the U.S boasting they were first world if only 105 of the population could get first world medical care or education ?"

Get your numbers right, it was at least 16 % in 1994.

Life expectancy has dropped sharply in SA since 1994 and not only because of Aids (your easy scapegoat hiding incompetence, lack of doctors, investment). Hint: Aids is a world-wide disease, life expectancy has risen in other countries.

And yes, airports are larger today (also a pretext apparently to remove all traces of Afrikaans), tourism is indeed growing *every where* in the world, you have to compare things comparable in the past.

Computers now are much faster than in the 1980s, does that mean that the computers under "Aparheid" were substandards? Obviously not. Some companies and corporations (ISCOR, SARB) had the best and latest.

Piet said...

The Rooster lecturing :

>"I think what people need to do is start to get this simple idea in their head. The old South Africa was better for some white people. "

Yes, it is indeed a simple idea.

For most whites.

And for many other people. Even The Economist came to term with that: Black unemployment and underemployment has grown since the end of Apartheid.

Now, it is true, a certain middle-class helped by discrimination and political appointments has enriched itself also.

>"End of story."

It is very simplistic.

>"For the rest of us it was a terrible system."

Who is US?

>"And those whites are in the minority as most whites today benefit by have an emerging middle class to sell to, and the freedoms of being able to trade on the world market, and express themselves freely etc."

Pfff.

1) Whites expressed themselves freely in SA (where you in Wits during the 70s and 80s???), you really had to take things into your own hands to have any trouble.

2) Once again, the economical arguments does not cut it. SA was able to trade freely before the 70s, it is the likes of you who imposed sanctions and made everyone's life a little tougher. And you dare speak of freedom!

Piet said...

3) Again for you, all that is important is that people trade and benefit from a growing middle class while forgetting (on purpose?) the political and cultural dimensions: whites have no weight political, Afrikaners no way of protecting their language, etc. But that is also because these things mean nothing to you. Personally, I think this is simply true because you are most probably English speaking and prosperous and feel part of the anglopshere.

You want us all to only think of "prospering" and forget that people have other aspirations. The ANCYL will remind you otherwise. Tribal instincts are innate.

4) Modern South Africa is not really prosperous (even Bostwana is richer per capita), real per capita growth is only around 1-2% a year and less for whites.

If I were a young educated white and thought only of prosperity I would leave SA and "its growing middle class".

That's the natural conclusion of your "prosperity-only" philosophy.

Jim Beam said...

@Piet

History is always written by the victor. Nostalgia is in the eye of the beholder. They are not the same.

Piet said...

Jim Beam said...
"@Piet

History is always written by the victor. Nostalgia is in the eye of the beholder. They are not the same."

What are you saying?

The victors are rewriting history... We know we have The Rooster here to prove it.

And you don't say, nostalgia is not the same as history!? Didn't think about that.

But you qualify "nostalgia" any reflection about the past that does not suit you. It does not mean these facts or impressions are not historically accurate.

And if they are accurate and reflect poorly on the present, of course they will elicit nostalgia.

Now, in a way, I understand, some people want to forget about the past because otherwise their current situation might even look even less rosy. Who's fooling oneself you think then?

The Rooster said...

1) Whites expressed themselves freely in SA (where you in Wits during the 70s and 80s???), you really had to take things into your own hands to have any trouble.

--------------

Oh jah, we were so free ! I could say anything I wanted ! And if I thought killing blacks bronze age children riding cicycles over the border was not for me , no worries. Would get a pat on the back and be allowed to go on my way freely. What a happy free place South Africa was during apartheid. Like one big colourful smurf village !

lol
-------------------
2) Once again, the economical arguments does not cut it. SA was able to trade freely before the 70s, it is the likes of you who imposed sanctions and made everyone's life a little tougher. And you dare speak of freedom!

-------------------

No, sir. With all due respect it is the likes of you !

Piet said...

@The Rooster said...

"Oh jah, we were so free ! I could say anything I wanted !"

About as much as today I would say, more even probably. Whites don't dare say publicly that things were better before. No politician dares say it. Lots think it.

"And if I thought killing blacks bronze age children riding cicycles over the border was not for me , no worries. "

Are you speaking of a soldier disobeying orders? Name me an army that tolerates this...

(This is different from freedom of expression : expression vs. execution of acts as a soldier.)


About sanctions promoted by people speaking about "freedom" the Rooster then adds lamely:

"No, sir. With all due respect it is the likes of you !"

Well, no. Liberals like you were the ones that impose sanctions and hurt everyone in SA. You then blame the lack of freedom (travelling for instance) or economical growth on the very sanctions you people imposed! What a cheek! Imposed... That's the opposite of freedom, Rooster. You can't claim to be for both without contradiction.

Not that I think that sanctions brought really Apartheid down, demography is the main reason (not enough white babies, too many blacks in the same country to sustain the system).