Monday, September 13, 2010

South Africa Loses It's Groove After SWC

JOHANNESBURG—The farewell supper at a church in this city's northern suburbs had just begun when two men burst upon the small gathering of parishioners. They demanded jewelry, cellphones, cash and car keys from the pastor and his dinner guests. After corralling the group into the clergy vestry, the men drove away in a stolen Mercedes Benz.

The Aug. 25 church robbery lasted no more than thirty minutes. It was made public not in newspaper headlines the next day, but in a two-paragraph note at a Sunday church service.

Yet the incident is one of many, small and large, playing out in communities across South Africa, that has re-awakened a sense of national unease following the World Cup.

In the weeks since the soccer tournament ended in mid-July, jubilation has turned to jitters; self-congratulations to self-analysis. Sublime confidence in South Africa's future has, for many here, morphed into blind hope that the country will ride out another turbulent period with minimal damage to the economy and social psyche.

The month-long World Cup brought out the best of South Africa. Heavy police presence on the streets curbed crime. Big unions refrained from debilitating labor strikes. The world heaped praise on South Africans of all stripes for hosting a spirited sporting event.

Consider what's happened since:

Soon after the World Cup ended, the ruling African National Congress touted plans for a media watchdog, empowered to punish transgressing journalists with undefined penalties and overseen by a parliament the party controls. That proposal, along with a controversial "Information Protection bill" before parliament, has ignited an acrimonious national debate and attracted criticism world-wide from free-speech advocates.

The ANC's war of words with the media was still in full swing when public-service workers walked off their jobs. The wage strike emptied teachers from public schools, nurses from state hospitals and workers from government offices. On Tuesday, unions suspended the three-week strike to weigh a government salary increase.

The spotlight has also returned to South Africa's violent streets, now that a well-known white rugby player has been put on trial for killing a black police officer. The rugby player claimed he was a victim of a robbery—by the police. There's an investigation into the alleged use of his credit card at a McDonald's after the incident.

That's not all. The ANC itself appears in disarray as leaders jockey ahead of policy conclave later this month. The party's youth wing has criticized President Jacob Zuma's leadership and promoted its agenda of nationalizing South Africa's mines.

Most South Africans are trying to shrug off the post-Cup gloom and predictions of doom. Many harbor a deep belief that South Africa, like democracies elsewhere, can self-correct, that politicians and unions can be reeled in, that a collective survival instinct will save the nation once again.

"We've walked up to the brink before and looked over," said a Johannesburg-based mining executive. "We always manage to walk back."

That's not an unreasonable assumption, given what South Africa has come through in the past two decades. It's gone from an apartheid state pariah with a broken economy to a well-lauded host of the World's largest sporting event. But if the World cup fueled aspirations of what South Africa can accomplish at its best, the weeks since have shown what can go wrong when it's not.

The shaken churchgoers, robbed during the going-away party of a friend, suggest a sense of perspective will be needed in the days ahead. The church letter expressed gratitude that nobody was hurt; noted the recovery of the abandoned Mercedes; and explained a few new security measures.

"Beyond that," the letter summed up, "we are not going to get paranoid about this."

Wall Street Journal

69 Opinion(s):

Anonymous said...

Those who say that SA can never be Zimbabwe better think again. It is going in that direction very fast!

The Rooster said...

Those who say that SA can never be Zimbabwe better think again. It is going in that direction very fast!

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In what sense ? Because I can't see any anology between Africas richest country and it's poorest. Or between Africa's most democratic and it's most autocratic.

Sean said...

@Rooster, wasn't Zimbabwe once a vibrant economy? And who recently went to Zimbabwe? Wasn't it the "leader in making"? Democratic... who is it that want's to muzzle the media? Who is it that wishes to nationalize the mines? But then again you can't look at facts and can only focus on things that paint a rosey picture for you.

The Rooster said...

@Rooster, wasn't Zimbabwe once a vibrant economy? And who recently went to Zimbabwe? Wasn't it the "leader in making"? Democratic... who is it that want's to muzzle the media? Who is it that wishes to nationalize the mines? But then again you can't look at facts and can only focus on things that paint a rosey picture for you.


_____________

If you mean for black people then no. Zimbabwe was always a crap hole. Just like South Africa. At least we're improving the lives of our black people. Again I don't see how we can be compared to zimbabwe at all.

Whose trying to nationalise the mines ? Er, the A.N.C youth league ? The A.N.C have stated they are 100% against it. Muzzle the media ? Jees , what a dramja queen ! Show me anything that shows there was ever any attempt to muzzle the media through ligislation. You want to see a muzzled media ? Try the U.S.A.

The Rooster said...

And are you implying Malema is ever going to be the leader of South Africa ? Boy you lot do get carried away.

Sean said...

Rooster you seriously live in some dream world. If memory serves me correctly, you were stating how wonderfully well things were going in Zimbabwe, but now you state its a "crap hole". Which one is it?
As for helping blacks, yes they are, however only a small elite who are well connected. There are blacks out there which say they are worse off with the ANC in power. The once world class public medical is a long and distant memory.
But time and time again, you prove you do not look at simple facts. You simply dismiss the ANCYL, but who do you think had a major influence in getting rid of Thabo Mbeki and put Zuma in power? PS, the media are the ones brining allot of corruption to light, and hence the ANC logic to muzzle them.
I still would love to know why you cannot simply accept facts and accept some negative news once in a while.
As for getting carried away, think that its a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Dachshund said...

Hey Rooster, nobody thought Jacob Zuma would become president, and look what happened.

A rich African country can quite easily be turned into a desperately poor one with corrupt leaders plundering it.

Krokodil said...

Rooster, me old cock, you are talking mega twaddle about how Zim was a crummy place for black africans.

On the contrary, it was probably the most advanced black-african middle class society on the continent. Now, to be sure, lots of Zims were still poor and not middle class, but great strides had been made to change that.

Since then, of course, jolly old Bob has been on a mission to reverse all the economic and social progress made there. And, as Sean correctly points out, our wondrous ANC cadres think the world of good ol' Bob!

As for Malema, sad to say, such personages have way more credibility in places like Africa than would be the norm in more developed parts of the world.

The Rooster said...

Actually everyone including you lot were insisting he was going to become president and freaking out about making. Making him seem like the good guy in the eyes of the poor black population.

Now I don't encourage corruption, but the richest country in the world is extremely corrupt. Corruption at levels that makes ours look like childs play. A few people buying themselves nice cars and spending lavishly is hardly thr worst thing that can happen to an economy. Spending ALL the money on large scale government socialism is.

The Rooster said...

Rooster you seriously live in some dream world. If memory serves me correctly, you were stating how wonderfully well things were going in Zimbabwe, but now you state its a "crap hole". Which one is it?

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Well compared to here it's a shit hole. But certainly the country is on the up compared to a few years ago.


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As for helping blacks, yes they are, however only a small elite who are well connected. There are blacks out there which say they are worse off with the ANC in power

----------------

Rubbish. Don't use that kak on me. The only time a black person would ever say such a thing was when he was trying to be as incredibly insulting and hurtful as he could be. "This is even worse than Apartheid." Of course he doesn't really mean it. A few may still have nothing now, but at least they have human rights as potential which is more than before.

The Rooster said...

The once world class public medical is a long and distant memory.

------------

Oh dear. Serious denial ! World class ? For who ???? Whites maybe !

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But time and time again, you prove you do not look at simple facts. You simply dismiss the ANCYL, but who do you think had a major influence in getting rid of Thabo Mbeki and put Zuma in power? PS, the media are the ones brining allot of corruption to light, and hence the ANC logic to muzzle them.

--------------------

Please, please, please show me anything the A.N.C proposed that can remotely be consctrued as "muzzling the media". Please !

Lime Lite said...

Rooster usually doesn't know which day of the week it is let alone if he's a rooster or a chicken. In his eyes the ANC can do no wrong and us whites are bitter and disillusioned. Well, you're right about that and I've left SA for that very reason - so that I'm no longer bitter and disillusioned. BTW - I live in Melbourne and at a recent SA comedy night the Coloreds and Indians outnumbered the white South Africans so I guess it's not just us racist whites fleeing. And no, I'm not going to be returning to SA one day with my tail between my legs. Enjoy the life you have there Rooster - but please promise to go down with the ship and not bolt when the inevitable happens. Maybe open your eyes once in a while and admit that your ANC is screwing up the country. Your rants may just carry more weight then.

tall horse said...

Hijacked family ponder return to UK

If memory serves me correctly the rooster hates expats and insults them regularly. In a recent post he, she, it was praising I Luv SA's blog for its fairness as opposed to "those haters" of some other blogs. Kind of rich coming from this hypocrite who runs a blog (or used to) called killwhitey and does not hesitate to spew his, her, its hatred for white people... oh but he,she, it will tell you that his, her, its rants are not to be taken seriously...

peace

tall horse

Sean said...

Rooster you completely contradict yourself constantly. You state that "Spending ALL the money on large scale government socialism is." Well South Africa is become one of the worlds biggest welfare states: http://www.fin24.com/Economy/SA-worlds-biggest-welfare-state-20100221
"A few people buying themselves nice cars and spending lavishly is hardly thr worst thing that can happen to an economy". Just the logic of the "champions of the poor". Never mind the money could be used to improve services for the poor.
"please show me anything the A.N.C proposed that can remotely be consctrued as "muzzling the media"". Wasn't someone arrested after a damning article was published in the paper about a certain police chief?
"Oh dear. Serious denial ! World class ? Whites maybe !". Wasn't the first heart transplant performed in South Africa? As for whites only, not quite the case, they still had access to decent health care services.
By the way, when trying to argue a point, it would be helpful to use facts now and then. Just a bit of advice.

The Rooster said...

Guy are you trying to tell me the blacks under Apartheid had decent medical care ?

Oh my wifes holy tits, some of you people are too much.

Exzanian said...

No Rooster, nobody is to tell you anything, the facts speak for themselves. Now I'm not going to do you a favour and google all the crap about bloody sheets, dead babies, rats eating babies, faeces on the floor etc, never mind the dead and neglected patients from the latest strike by public health sector workers.

Who built Baragwanath? Huh? What did the blacks have in the way of proper medical care 150 years ago? Muti and Sangomas! Roots and fucken bark! Do you have any idea how JHB Gen has declined in the last 20 years?

Go play with your tottie...Fuck but you have got a thick skin...

Sean said...

Yes, most certainly better than they have at the moment where babies die due to unhygienic conditions. But I suppose that does not affect you, so you rather ignore that "minor" fact.

Islandshark said...

Exactly Exzanian - doctors from across the world queued for practical training at Baragwanath for its facilities to handle the endless supply of emergency cases resulting from blacks stabbing each other and the odd axe in the skull case here and there...

Dachshund said...

Those thousands of babies are not dying just because of lack of hygiene, they are dying because they were born premature and HIV positive to HIV positive teenage mothers. Combine the corrosive effects of child grants dangled before black teenage girls with colossal rates of HIV, school teachers banging students and the Cosatu encouraged attitude of entitlement among black workers in this country and you get a lethal cocktail. It doesn't help that nurses are totally overworked having to tend to these demanding sick babies that should never have been conceived in the first place.

Jim Beam said...

Hey make Rooster on contributor. He is as contraversial as shit. Would make for a VERY lively blog if you posted his articles.

Viking said...

It's crossed my mind to ask him, Jim. Maybe I will just as soon as you sign up ;)

The Rooster said...

No Rooster, nobody is to tell you anything, the facts speak for themselves. Now I'm not going to do you a favour and google all the crap about bloody sheets, dead babies, rats eating babies, faeces on the floor etc, never mind the dead and neglected patients from the latest strike by public health sector workers.

Who built Baragwanath? Huh? What did the blacks have in the way of proper medical care 150 years ago? Muti and Sangomas! Roots and fucken bark! Do you have any idea how JHB Gen has declined in the last 20 years?

Go play with your tottie...Fuck but you have got a thick skin...

----------------

Rats eating babies ? Shit on the floor ? What the fuck goes on in your head ? That all sounds so interesting and alarming but it's just not fucking anything close to reality in the slightest.

And again there are millions of people in South Africa. The building of a few hospitals that served a token few black people for propoganda purposes does not mean the majority of millions and millions living in the rural area etc even had a 1% chance of ever getting medical treatment.

Your brains have been so washed they squeek when you think.

The Rooster said...

Hey make Rooster on contributor. He is as contraversial as shit. Would make for a VERY lively blog if you posted his articles.

-----------

I'll consider a post or two. If I decline it's because it'll of course make this sites hit rate go out of the ceiling.

I have offered various people on this site to engage me on a debate before. Any format. But nobody has been brave enough to try that on for size yet. God knows I would wipe the floor with you lot.

The Rooster said...

Yes, most certainly better than they have at the moment where babies die due to unhygienic conditions. But I suppose that does not affect you, so you rather ignore that "minor" fact.

--------------

Oh dear. A black baby was extremely lucky to even be born in a hospital under apartheid. There was a tiny chance of this happening. How hygenic do you think that was ?

Jim Beam said...

Viking I dont think most readers are interested in highlighting many of the truths. We talk about corruption in the ANC today - now this:

The ANC government was told in a secret report how apartheid-era government operatives stole hundreds of billions from the State - and how vast sums could be recovered from those responsible and the European bankers who helped them hide the loot. But mysteriously, the Mbeki cabinet and the Reserve Bank decided to do nothing about it. Why?

After a vitriolic disinformation campaign led by Reserve Bank governor Gill Marcus, an amendment to the current Reserve Bank Act, tailor-made to silence the bank’s private shareholders, has hurriedly been tabled in parliament. Those shareholders, you see, have been asking the same question.

But, instead of silence, the shareholders have taken furious action – and brought to light an explosive secret document in which it is revealed how the Mbeki government was given a detailed account of the extraordinary extent of frauds on the state perpetrated by the Afrikaner nationalist elite in the apartheid era – frauds that their ANC successors have until now chosen to cover up.

NOSEWEEK

Jim Beam said...

BTW : The figure is R200 Billion gone AWOL.

Viking said...

I believe it, Jim. The more blindly a people follow their government, the more outright theft there will be. Although I strongly suspect most South Africans now look with a critical eye upon their former rulers.

As for Rooster, well, as you can see, his arrogance will be his downfall - contempt for others is his forte. I might cross-post one of his articles this weekend, just to see the response. I have found one or two interesting insights there.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day!

Sean said...

"Rats eating babies ? Shit on the floor ? What the fuck goes on in your head ? That all sounds so interesting and alarming but it's just not fucking anything close to reality in the slightest.". Rooster this just goes to highlight your total denial of anything bad about South Africa. By the way before you try say anything just have a look at the following sites: http://www.slideshare.net/nikimcqueen/shocking-state-hospital-conditions-south-africa, http://www.da.org.za/docs/560/AGprovHealth%20Departments_document.pdf,http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Rats-eat-babys-corpse-20030314

Anonymous said...

Rooster - when you sleep with dogs you wake up with fleas, get my drift? Why do you keep debating with unrepentant racists? There is no time for that, truly well-meaning people should focus on what will make life in Azania truly better for the masses.

The Rooster said...

Seriously ? In a South African hospital rate eat babies ?

STFU ! People like you who make all of the serious critique people have against the government sound like crying wolf and hyperbolic drivel ! If IO was anti the government I would ban you from participating because you would make me look like a retard.

The Rooster said...

Rooster - when you sleep with dogs you wake up with fleas, get my drift? Why do you keep debating with unrepentant racists? There is no time for that, truly well-meaning people should focus on what will make life in Azania truly better for the masses.

---------------

Call me an optimist, but I don't think these people are bad. Just brainwashed. They're sadly not the brightest or most introspective bunch and lack serious empathy as to the perspective of black people. With a little soft touch many of them will see the light. My father did and he was at one stage the most avid "swaart/rooi gevaar" post traumatic stress disorder from the army guy around. He;s learnt to chanel his bitterness now towards those that sent him to war for a bad reason. Not those he fought against.

I never chose this battle. I was living overseas and would get homesick and try read something about south africa and all I would get is comments about how "everyone is going to get murdered" etc. And it did not meet reality at all. So I started to think what is behind this ? The answer ?

Bitter expat South Africs who are either bosbefok or brainwashed or both. And gents, before I get a gutteral reaction from you, ask yourself honestly...is that not me ?

Viking said...

Sean-
my circle of friends here is made up mostly of South African doctors and their families. Every one can vouch for personal experiences of rats, cockroaches, etc, running around the floors of state hospitals in many provinces. As for whether they eat babies, I can't tell you, but they have been found trying to gnaw on open wounds.

The main reason is that the cleaners just don't do their jobs, and many administrators don't give a toss about their responsibilities. It's not even that the resources aren't there, they're just wasted. Or worse, stolen.

Rooster, as you can see you're being given enough rope to hang yourself, and you're doing a great job.
If you want to be taken seriously - ever, by anyone - you'll have to lose the absolute contempt you have for your peers and fellow-citizens. Man, you're almost contemptuous enough to sound like a liberal.
And you don't want to be a liberal, do you?

If you want to be relevant, you might want to try to understand why people think like they do, and read between the lines of what they're saying.

http://shutupwhitey.blogspot.com/2010/03/lets-talk-about-julius-malema.html

In this post, you say you tolerate black 'racism' as a "shortcoming". Well, how 'bout trying to see where other folks come from too?

@Anonymous 05:14
If you stick around, unlike most trolls, you'll see plenty of advice on how to improve things in SA. And plenty of constructive criticism too.

Islandshark said...

@ rooster: Bitter expats, not the brightest?

Just bright enough to obtain highly skilled work permits for 1st world countries, or are you going to tell us next that all those expats have ancestry visas?

You are actually worse than the Malemas of this world. Because you start with the proposal that you care, when in actual fact you clearly hate those with enough backbone to shout out the truth.

The Rooster said...

Sean-
my circle of friends here is made up mostly of South African doctors and their families. Every one can vouch for personal experiences of rats, cockroaches, etc, running around the floors of state hospitals in many provinces. As for whether they eat babies, I can't tell you, but they have been found trying to gnaw on open wounds.

The main reason is that the cleaners just don't do their jobs, and many administrators don't give a toss about their responsibilities. It's not even that the resources aren't there, they're just wasted. Or worse, stolen.


------------------------

For the most part I can confirm that a lot has been done in rceent years to ensure the level of cleanliness etc have been great improved in government hospitals. There might be some exceptions that I'm aware of. I'm sure your "cicle of doctor" friends will all confirm this if you're honest.

Exzanian said...

Viking@20 September 2010 12:58
Well said, incisive and bang on target.

Sean said...

Viking, I am not saying for certain that the story is true: http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Rats-eat-babys-corpse-20030314. However it is quite possible with the horror stories going. Rooster you continually come out with all these wonderful statements such as "For the most part I can confirm that a lot has been done in rceent years to ensure the level of cleanliness etc have been great improved in government hospitals", yet you do not provide one shed of proof! I would love to know if you have even set foot inside one of these hospitals (such as King Edward, Chris Hani Baragwanath)? I somehow doubt it!

The Rooster said...

Viking, I am not saying for certain that the story is true: http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Rats-eat-babys-corpse-20030314. However it is quite possible with the horror stories going. Rooster you continually come out with all these wonderful statements such as "For the most part I can confirm that a lot has been done in rceent years to ensure the level of cleanliness etc have been great improved in government hospitals", yet you do not provide one shed of proof! I would love to know if you have even set foot inside one of these hospitals (such as King Edward, Chris Hani Baragwanath)? I somehow doubt it!

-------------

In 2005 I had a relative who could not afford an operation. They had to have it in Livingstone hospital in Port Elizabeth. At that time the level of hygene etc was NOT very good at all. The nursing was awful and the attitude callous. All said and done he did get a very tricky operation done and the level of medical care was adequate. The cost ? Nothing.

But then again this year another relative had to go to the same hospital. This time everything was hugely different. I visited her almost everyday for 3 weeks and can confirm the wards and toilets were spotless. Cleaners were on the go the whole time. The nurses were extremely attentive, friendly , helpful and professional. You could still wish for more face to face time with a doctor, but again this is a very busy hospital. Now this hospital was notoriously bad before and made headline after headline in the province. Other then the big improvements they've also just opened a brand new casuality wing.

Other observations : most of the doctors were young white South Africans or older Indians (from India) and West Africans.

Hmm...maybe I should actually go the whole hog and write a post about it. I have quite a lot of information about this topic.

Jim Beam said...

Some of you tend to forget that under aparthied there was no press freedom so people could not write what they wanted without being visited by security police. When we compare the news today with the news under aparthied, try to remember that very little actually made it to the surface then.

Today we also have the internet where we can pretty much say what we want. We all know that the ANC are a bunch of useless tosspots - no doubt, however look at history with its warts and all and not through rose tinted spectacles.

The Rooster said...

I will say that I do have a medical aid and given a preference here, or anywhere in the world probably, I'd still prefer private medical care. Far from perfect, but it does under the new health ministry seem to be heading the in right direction. I'd like to remind people that we are a poor country and we can wish for the best of everything all we like, but until we have the means to pay for it, we can forget it.

lady gugu said...

Jim Beam said:

When we compare the news today with the news under aparthied, try to remember that very little actually made it to the surface then

Today we also have the internet where we can pretty much say what we want

then go for it, boy! since the apartheid security police is out of the picture.. spill the beams, i mean the beans! Please enlighten us on all the atrocities committed during the apartheid days; show us the mass graves of the hundred of thousands of dissidents and blacks in general that were slaughtered by security police...
oh I guess you can buy a confession with 30000 rand nowadays and a vote with a loaf of bread and a ANC T-shirt. And you can buy your way out of prison and to a lavish lifestyle in the same way...
But hey when apartheid wasn't even over both Janusz WaluĹ› and Clive Derby-Lewis were sentenced to death for the murder of that scumbag chris hani who was an enemy of the state.
ja ja ja

howz Ozzieland, mate?

d00b said...

@ Rooster

You are an idiot.

Here are some stats, they speak for themselves so I do not even have to add my 2 cents.

By Adriana Stuijt

http://censorbugbear-reports.blogspot.com/2008/12/south-africans-dying-much-younger.html

"By 1986, there were a total of 122,401 taxpayer-funded public hospital beds in South Africa in 211 public hospitals countrywide. The (then-) four provinces spent R2 339-million annually on public health care for all population groups - of which less than 5% was spent on the public health care budgets for whites - the rest was allocated for treatment of patients in the health-care facilities of other races. This would be worth an annual budget of R2-billion today. This budget did not include the ongoing building programme of public-health facilities."


By Vusile Tshabalala

"At the start of the year 1900, the number of African South Africans was found to be 3,5-million according to the British colonial government census. By 1954, our African population had soared to 8,5-million — and by 1990, there were a full 35-million of us — all carefully managed, closely policed, counted, shunted around in homelands and townships — and all of us chafing and griping under the suppressive yoke of the Afrikaner Broederbond’s rigid racial segregation system.

During apartheid, our population grew apace however because we also had the benefit of the Broers’ medical knowledge and their excellent agricultural skills.

Our population growth and our average life expectancy in fact showed us Africans in South Africa to be in better than average health when compared to other Africans on the rest of the continent: in the decades prior to the official policy of apartheid, (which was started in 1948), the average life expectancy of African South Africans was only 38 years.

However, during the last decade of the apartheid era from 1948 to 1994, our average life expectancy had risen to 64 years — on a par with Europe’s average life expectancy. Moreover, our infant death rates had by then also been reduced from 174 to 55 infant deaths per thousand, higher than Europe’s, but considerably lower than the rest of the African continent’s.

And the African population in South Africa had by then also increased by 50% percent. (source: “a crime against humanity: analysing repression of the Apartheid State”, by Max Coleman of the Human Rights Committee)."

What do you have to say about all of this Rooster?

d00b said...

@ Rooster

You are an idiot


R100 says you will not counter this with facts, but either change the subject or resort to your usual childish ways. (Hint) Name calling or attempting to claim the Moral High Ground will not suffice.

Counter with facts or consider the floor wiped.

The stats speak for themselves.

By Adriana Stuijt

http://censorbugbear-reports.blogspot.com/2008/12/south-africans-dying-much-younger.html


"By 1986, there were a total of 122,401 taxpayer-funded public hospital beds in South Africa in 211 public hospitals countrywide. The (then-) four provinces spent R2 339-million annually on public health care for all population groups - of which less than 5% was spent on the public health care budgets for whites - the rest was allocated for treatment of patients in the health-care facilities of other races. This would be worth an annual budget of R2-billion today. This budget did not include the ongoing building programme of public-health facilities."


By Vusile Tshabalala

"At the start of the year 1900, the number of African South Africans was found to be 3,5-million according to the British colonial government census. By 1954, our African population had soared to 8,5-million — and by 1990, there were a full 35-million of us — all carefully managed, closely policed, counted, shunted around in homelands and townships — and all of us chafing and griping under the suppressive yoke of the Afrikaner Broederbond’s rigid racial segregation system.

During apartheid, our population grew apace however because we also had the benefit of the Broers’ medical knowledge and their excellent agricultural skills.

Our population growth and our average life expectancy in fact showed us Africans in South Africa to be in better than average health when compared to other Africans on the rest of the continent: in the decades prior to the official policy of apartheid, (which was started in 1948), the average life expectancy of African South Africans was only 38 years.

However, during the last decade of the apartheid era from 1948 to 1994, our average life expectancy had risen to 64 years — on a par with Europe’s average life expectancy. Moreover, our infant death rates had by then also been reduced from 174 to 55 infant deaths per thousand, higher than Europe’s, but considerably lower than the rest of the African continent’s.

And the African population in South Africa had by then also increased by 50% percent. (source: “a crime against humanity: analysing repression of the Apartheid State”, by Max Coleman of the Human Rights Committee)."

Viking said...

Jim, I think lady gugu has just made your point for you.

Any slight criticism of the old regime, however CORRECT by the way, is met with overreaction. I can understand a certain longing for the past, but being under illusions about it serves no purpose. It's probably just as delusional as those who "remember" it as a time of horrendous abuses and torture yada yada yada.
Press freedom is certainly one of the good things about the new SA - however much the ruling party may want to curtail it now.

d00b said...

The average life expectancy for black people was 38 before the "evil" white Apartheid government came to power.

Consider this:
(based on probability)
If the evil whites had not provided food and medical care to blacks. Nelson Mandela would have died somewhere between 1952 and 1960. He would not even have made it past the Rivonia trial. Jacob Zuma and Thabo Mbeki would have been dead by 1984 as would many others of their era.

If you throw in the AIDS pandemic that followed in later years then you would have a vastly different demographic makeup of South Africa. The population would most probably be around 10 million in total, where white and black numbers would be virtually identical(considering that there were only 3.5 million blacks in South Africa by 1910)

When you take all of this into account, more than 30 million blacks alive today, owe their existence to the "evil" white people of South Africa. Unlike other colonists who wiped out their indiginous populations, the "evil" whites of South Africa allowed theirs to increase 10 fold.

Very "evil" indeed. I understand now why they were compared to Nazis...*cough*

lady gugu said...

Viking said:

Jim, I think lady gugu has just made your point for you...
Any slight criticism of the old regime... blah, blah, blah


the point is, Viking, that 20 years down the line the Jim Beams of the world have still got this huge chip on their shoulder and they cannot move on without having a dig at the apartheid days as if that would give their comments an halo of authority and credibility in the same way that the ANC politicians use it in an attempt to decriminalize their rotten tactics.

You also immediately get a wild hair up your arse as soon as apartheid is brought up. Apartheid is gone, finished and buried!
But I cannot stand it when this resentful individuals have to consistently bring up apartheid to justify their own unresolved issues...

Why isn't Jim in South Africa reaping the rewards of the new democracy?

The Rooster said...

Our population growth and our average life expectancy in fact showed us Africans in South Africa to be in better than average health when compared to other Africans on the rest of the continent: in the decades prior to the official policy of apartheid, (which was started in 1948), the average life expectancy of African South Africans was only 38 years.

However, during the last decade of the apartheid era from 1948 to 1994, our average life expectancy had risen to 64 years — on a par with Europe’s average life expectancy. Moreover, our infant death rates had by then also been reduced from 174 to 55 infant deaths per thousand, higher than Europe’s, but considerably lower than the rest of the African continent’s.

And the African population in South Africa had by then also increased by 50% percent. (source: “a crime against humanity: analysing repression of the Apartheid State”, by Max Coleman of the Human Rights Committee)."

-----------------

I'm sure what I am supossed to disprove exactly. What population group in the world didn't live longer with the benefit of anti biotics and western medicine ? I bet the life expectancy of the "boers" also went up when the brits arrived here. What does this say about anything? Do you think I have a problem with the notion of modern medicine increasinging life expectancy ? Why ? WTF ?

And before anyone bored the hell out of me about it going down under the A.N.C please take a look at any graph of life expectancy in Africa since the 1990's (when Aids came into the picture) and you will see exactly the same thing.

Viking said...

lady g.
There is quite a lot of room to operate within the dual extremes of worshipping some NP golden age on one hand and comparisons with the Nazis on the other, I'm sure you'll agree.

Now I'm fairly sure, having read Jim's comments while he's been a friend of ILSA's, that he's no liberal and is not 'unable to move on', and in all honesty I doubt that having an UNcritical view of the past would make someone more credible in anyone's eyes.

As you say, it's done and gone, and is a part of history. A few too many people though are trying to compare apples and oranges, comparing SA now to SA of the past in a way that ignores glaring differences. Which is fine and they're welcome to do it.

But I think it might be more constructive to offer criticisms of the current regime on its own merits - or lack of - and compare SA as it is to how it might be were things different.

Sean said...

Rooster, what happens at one hospital does not happen for all. The majority of state hospitals are in a utter state. If you really believe in what you are saying you would not have medical aid. And a final question, would you care to explain the drastic drop in the average life expectancy in South Africa? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Life_expectancy_in_some_Southern_African_countries_1958_to_2003.png

The Rooster said...

Rooster, what happens at one hospital does not happen for all. The majority of state hospitals are in a utter state. If you really believe in what you are saying you would not have medical aid. And a final question, would you care to explain the drastic drop in the average life expectancy in South Africa? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Life_expectancy_in_some_Southern_African_countries_1958_to_2003.png



----------------

Same reason as the rest os subsaharan Africa. Aids.

See this page for a few examples.

http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2005/02/the_african_cli.html

At least we are one of the few countries who are doing something about it. Do you really suggest if the NATs were in power they would try stop the deaths of black people ?

Bwahahahahahaha !

Jim Beam said...

@Lady Gugu

"Please enlighten us on all the atrocities committed during the apartheid days"

- I am not certain where I would start. The TRC was at the end of it nothing short of a farce. I note how people like to quote that only 3,000 people died under aparthied yet this excludes the tribal warfare security branch used to ignite. Those had been excluded as it would open a can of worms.

You appear much like many of the posters on these forums as thinking that it is about money whereas it is about an injustice. It appears and comes across most times that many whites in South Africa today try to justify aparthied by putting it into contrast with the ANC's stupidity and misrule. You cant simply compare an apple with an orange.

"the Jim Beams of the world have still got this huge chip on their shoulder and they cannot move on without having a dig at the apartheid days"

- I highlighted the fact that there is a free press today. Under aparthied there was no free press. If that is incorrect then say so. Don't pollute your train of thought with personal swipes.


"Apartheid is gone, finished and buried! "

- Maybe on record but reading all the forums and blogs around I note with interest that it is still in most of your heads.

Viking said...

"yet this excludes the tribal warfare security branch used to ignite"

Yes, well. It's quite a common theme these days to have whitey whispering nasty thoughts in the ears of the otherwise Noble Savage - all of Africa's wars being "engineered" by Washington and orchestrated by the West.
It flies in the face of reality, Jim. No matter how much "igniting" takes places, the ones wielding the machetes are the ones we call murderers.

The fact is, though, there are still people who will never admit apartheid was wrong - or even any aspect of it. And this in a world where we civilised Westerners hold critical thought as a pillar of our civilisation, and the ability to be reflective of our actions and beliefs as an almost uniquely Western attribute.
Part of it's a pure old fashioned ego trip, but I tend to think people always compare a given scenario to what they know and grew up with.

Islandshark said...

The tribal warfare was no more ignited by the security forces than the ANC and its communist allies.

The Rooster said...

The tribal warfare was no more ignited by the security forces than the ANC and its communist allies.

--------------

Someone play this guy a few bars of "Die stem" so he can sing from his Apartheid propoganda song sheet.

How hard is it for you guys to get into your skulls the concept that most of what you were told about Apartheid, by the people practicing it, was sugar coated and spin doctored ?

Viking said...

"sugar coated and spin doctored"

Yes it was.

But how does that make inter-tribal warfare the scary white man's fault?

Even if I hand you a rifle and tell you that Sipho across the street said your wife was ugly, if you pull the trigger you are 100% responsible.

Jim Beam said...

@Viking

Zulu and Xhosa nations have been at each other for generations. Its very easy to stir them up against each other and ignite war.

Look at Afrikaner and Ron on this blog and see how people still have a go at each other. The one fears the other as one of them wants to dominate history. Who will rule - Boer or Afrikaner?

Blacks in South Africa I have noted before have not been assimilated into Western culture and they will invariably go at each other in a more violent way when there is disagreement.

Sean said...

Rooster I went to your lovely site: http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution cannot find a single topic on it relating to Africa and aids. Who was it that denied that Aids even exists? Who was it that said that one can cure it with beetroots? If the government was doing such a wonderful job as you have put it, then the life expectancy would not be dropping like a sinker. Neither would they need to implement the new NHI!

Islandshark said...

Rooster, I really don't know which is more pathetic of your over-inflated ego, where you regard your background and experience as somehow more valid and valuable than other South Africans or expats not sharing your points of view, and your rude, condescending demeanor where you somehow think that ignoring proven facts and resorting to vulgar language and name-calling when you're trapped like a rat, make you the superior being.

You act like a pissed off ox just having had a wet dream - it doesn't really know what is worse, the fact that it was only a wet dream or the fact that there isn't even any evidence of a supposedly exiting experience occurring before reality set in. The only thing it really is sure of is that it is pissed...

The Rooster said...

Rooster I went to your lovely site: http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution cannot find a single topic on it relating to Africa and aids. Who was it that denied that Aids even exists? Who was it that said that one can cure it with beetroots? If the government was doing such a wonderful job as you have put it, then the life expectancy would not be dropping like a sinker. Neither would they need to implement the new NHI!

-----------

Firstly I don't know who it was that said HIV doesn't exist. Can you enlighten me ? Certainly it was not the government.

Secondly there is nothing the government could have done to slow down the spread of AIDS short of telling people who they were allowed to sleep with. Currently we give ARV's to people for free and life expectancy has stabilized. Blaming a government for a sexually transmitted disease is absurd. It's not like every single rural town etc isn't littered with posters, signs and awareness campaigns.

The NHI is an attempt to give quality free global health-care in the country. For this we will have to be taxed more. You lot love to compare our government health care to Europe and blame it on lack of capability. Reality is it's lack of funding. Do you people think the French etc don't pay for their "free" health care ? They get taxed over 50%!!

Nothing for nothing my friends.

The Rooster said...

Rooster, I really don't know which is more pathetic of your over-inflated ego, where you regard your background and experience as somehow more valid and valuable than other South Africans or expats not sharing your points of view, and your rude, condescending demeanor where you somehow think that ignoring proven facts and resorting to vulgar language and name-calling when you're trapped like a rat, make you the superior being.

You act like a pissed off ox just having had a wet dream - it doesn't really know what is worse, the fact that it was only a wet dream or the fact that there isn't even any evidence of a supposedly exiting experience occurring before reality set in. The only thing it really is sure of is that it is pissed...

-------------------

Play the ball not the man. I never said my experience is more valuable. I said it's less emotionally compromised and therefore more objective. I haven't been exposed to apartheid propaganda. I grew up at school with half my class being black kids from equally/more wealthy backgrounds. I've never been exposed to any violent crime, nor known anyone who has etc

If you went to the army, or got hijacked or lost someone etc and have some post traumatic stress disorder, I can easily see how you could easily be manipulated by fear-mongering and alarm-ism and get a bit carried away about crime and such things. Or perhaps you're just a ballie and grew up in a system where they taught you blacks were subservient dogs and it was your god given right to be more privileged than them.

Either way you're not an objective person on the issue of South Africa. you have baggage. The first step to healing is admitting this.

Don't any of you want to heal ? to release all the bitter bile that's eating you up ? I'm sure some of you are hurting. Doctor Rooster can help if you let me.

Dachshund said...

Whooa, roosters, rats, pissed off oxen, sounds like a convention on Chinese astrology!

Sean said...

Rooster once again you distort what people say "Firstly I don't know who it was that said HIV doesn't exist." meanwhile I explicitly stated "Who was it that denied that Aids even exists?". And just in case you wondering have a look at the following site and look for a certain name of Thabo Mbeki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIDS_denialism.
As for your argument on NHI, if the state hospitals are as wonderful as you state they are, why the need? Surely if these hospitals are dramatically improving as you put it, then everyone has access to decent health care (since they are public hospitals)?
And by the way not once did I compare the hospitals to any other hospital in another country as you put it, "You lot love to compare our government health care to Europe and blame it on lack of capability.".
Another point, the French tax rates are at most 40%: http://www.french-property.com/guides/france/finance-taxation/taxation/calculation-tax-liability/rates/, http://riviera.angloinfo.com/countries/france/intax.asp. To me that's on par with South Africa is it not? http://www.justlanded.com/english/South-Africa/South-Africa-Guide/Money/Income-tax I can also assure you that the French certainly get a load more with their tax!

Jim Beam said...

@Rooster

"Firstly I don't know who it was that said HIV doesn't exist."

- Thabo Mbeki and Dr Beetroot Liver

"Secondly there is nothing the government could have done to slow down the spread of AIDS"

- They could have told people to use condoms. Instead they said whitey wanted to control black population. Recall the condoms they bought from China a few years ago and when they stuck a stapel through the condoms to attach it to a piece of paper? Not once has government advocated responsibility.

"Blaming a government for a sexually transmitted disease is absurd"

- When the president starts to sleep around leaving his semen all over the country it tells the populace that its ok. When the former president says HIV does not exist then guess what - people dont use condoms and do as they please.

"The NHI is an attempt"

- The NHI is an attempt at communist medicine. It is going to bankrupt the government much like it has the British government. You cannot pull NHI off in a country where 40% of the people dont contribute to the economy or the health system.

"You lot love to compare our government health care to Europe "

Compare South Africa to an Asian country then. You dont work and pay social secuirty you dont get proper health care. Everyone has to contribute or it will fail. There is no FREE lunch! Where will the money come from?

The Rooster said...

I'm going to respond calmly. Even though what you wrote is so ignorant it warrants a solid wolloping.

----------

- Thabo Mbeki and Dr Beetroot Liver

---------------

Nope. Neither ever denied Aids exist. Not even in the loosest sense. That's 100% a media myth. And neither claimed beetroot could cure aids. Nothing close. Find me a direct quote from either that makes any of those claims. Or save us both some time and don't bother trying. No such quote exists.

---------------

Secondly there is nothing the government could have done to slow down the spread of AIDS"

- They could have told people to use condoms. Instead they said whitey wanted to control black population. Recall the condoms they bought from China a few years ago and when they stuck a stapel through the condoms to attach it to a piece of paper? Not once has government advocated responsibility.


--------------

Are you actually serious ? The "use a condom" campaign has been rampant for more than 15 years. It's written in stone as a policy of the government.

---------------

"Blaming a government for a sexually transmitted disease is absurd"

- When the president starts to sleep around leaving his semen all over the country it tells the populace that its ok. When the former president says HIV does not exist then guess what - people dont use condoms and do as they please.


------------

I'm struggling to hold it together. Once again Thabo Mbeki has never claimed Aids does not exist. Never !

___________

"The NHI is an attempt"

- The NHI is an attempt at communist medicine. It is going to bankrupt the government much like it has the British government. You cannot pull NHI off in a country where 40% of the people dont contribute to the economy or the health system.



------------------

And private ehaltyh care is 4 times as expensive as it needs be. Newsflash : We already have almost 100% free medical care for the entire country. All they proposing is improving it to provide first class medical care. They're saying that if this was provided less people would pay medical aids and that money could flow back into helping everyone.

And again, drop the fucking rooi gevaar crap. Grow out of it man. YThat reagenism bollocks is unsophisticated horse shit.

---------------------

You lot love to compare our government health care to Europe "

Compare South Africa to an Asian country then. You dont work and pay social secuirty you dont get proper health care. Everyone has to contribute or it will fail. There is no FREE lunch! Where will the money come from?

----------------


Actually you do in most Asian countries. Take it from someone who has lived in various Asian countries (first and third world).


But I welcome your right to question the proposal. Do you have a better alternative ? Let people die until we're rich enough to take care of them ? That's not really going to win any ethical awards.

Personally I'm not a huge fan of socialism. But you know it's not all about me. As someone with a very serious disease that's already cost me seriously big money (bankrupted me) to try and treat you'd think I'd be hugely in favour of free quality healthcare. But I understand the practical implications. South Africa should not try run before it could walk. That's why they've given it 14 years to be implicated. I just say we at least read what is proposed before we judge. Must we always be blinded by racial prejudice ?

Angulus Calx said...

I don’t like the Braai hoender.

He is right, Mbeki never denied that AIDS exists. What he said in actual fact is worse.

he said that AIDS is not a disease….His exact words were:

“I am saying sure, no problem at all, there may very well be a virus….What is fundamental is the AIDS. So much so that even in everyday language AIDS is said to be a disease. It’s no such thing. AIDS is a syndrome. It is a whole variety of diseases which affect a person because some thing negative has happened to the immune system…I am saying we’ll never be able to solve the AIDS problem” [sic]

Dachshund said...

AC, Mbeki was actually right there about Aids, it does manifest as a syndrome of diseases because of the underlying problem with the immune system. You never hear of someone dying of Aids, they die of meningitis, or pneumonia, or TB. There's a particular strain of meningitis, for example, that's directly related to Aids, you can't develop that strain if you aren't HIV positive, and the chances of curing that particular strain are negligible, there is no time to do it when you have to treat the underlying Aids first.

Another thing Mbeki said was that he was sick of people screwing around and then running to the government for a free cure for the consequences of screwing around. It wasn't so much a case of Aids denialism on his part, it was more a case of, How can you stop the spread of Aids if people behave irresponsibly.

The Rooster said...

“I am saying sure, no problem at all, there may very well be a virus….What is fundamental is the AIDS. So much so that even in everyday language AIDS is said to be a disease. It’s no such thing. AIDS is a syndrome. It is a whole variety of diseases which affect a person because some thing negative has happened to the immune system…I am saying we’ll never be able to solve the AIDS problem” [sic]


--------------

What aspect of that do you have a problem with ? That's an incredibly intelligent obervation by mister Mbeki. Far more sophisticated that your understanding I'm sure.

Dachshund said...

It didn't take incredible intelligence to work out the nature of Aids, there was information on this everywhere. Mbeki was a very treacherous person, he hated whites and didn't give a stuff about blacks either, just his own precious self. Dis hoekom hy sy gat gesien het.

Exzanian said...

Debating with the Rooster is like playing Whack-a-Mole: The more you give it to him, the more he pops up from another hole. The problem is that Rooster is a cherry picking strawman. Oblivious to the bad stuff, he chooses only to highlight the positive. Given that he had a priviledged upbringing (rich white parents that could afford to send him to CBC to be brainwashed by liberal catholics) I am not surprised about his views.

Islandshark said...

@ Exzanian - spot on.