Friday, September 04, 2009

Canadian Asylum: The Debate Rages On

Ray Hartley of The Times penned a piece "Race and crime do not go hand in hand" that unleashed a debate between himself and a fellow I quite enjoyed reading "Larry Goodfella". This is a long post but you will feel compelled to read till the bottom to see how it ends. I quite enjoyed Larry's point of view and daresay he won hands down.


News that Canada has granted a white South African refugee status because his life is in danger at the hands of his black countrymen is shocking and saddening.

It says more about Canadian perceptions than South African reality.

The truth is that the overwhelming majority of crime victims in this country are black and many of the perpetrators are white.

But such perceptions cannot just be wished away, they must be actively neutralised by every South African that is proud of their country.

It is time that we stopped giving importance to the racial identity of the victims and the perpetrators of crimes.

This is not as easy as it sounds and there are some cases which are easier to report on without the race tag than others.

It goes without saying that the racially motivated murder-spree that hit the community of Skierlik would be impossible to report without mentioning racial identity.

There could be no denying that the accused deliberately sought out and killed black South Africans, leaving whites that he encountered on the way unscathed.

But racially motivated crimes of this nature are in the minority. Most crimes are committed for immediate material gain or as part of larger organised crime networks.
The racial identity of a victim or a perpetrator is not the most important fact when armed robberies, murders or hijackings are reported.

We should not flinch from reporting on crime as this is a major social problem facing the nation.

But the focus of such reporting ought to be on the crime itself and how the criminals might be brought to book by the authorities — not on the race of the perpetrators and victims.

  1. Larry Goodfella on August 31st, 2009
    If a septic tank could write an article, it would read like Ray’s piece above.

    There are so many glaring lumps of faecal matter, that it reads more like the unbelievable trash that is periodically shat out by the ANCYL and YCL.

    You, Ray, are the one who is having a problem with reality, but it is more a problem of ’spin’ as you try to justify your ivory tower viewpoint, because there is no getting around the utter truth. Even in your own words.

    You say: “The truth is that the overwhelming majority of crime victims in this country are black and many of the perpetrators are white.”

    Do you mean to say that whites perpetrate the majority of crimes against black victims? We know that you do not mean this, but why dont you rather say it like it is instead of being obfuscating?

    So: The majority of victims are black. Obviously, the majority of perps are also black. Also: The majority of white victims are set upon by black perps. Therefore: The “many white” perps are actually “”"very few”"”.

    The annual death rate by violent crime in this country during peace time is greater or close enough to that of Iraq during the second Gulf war. As much as 20 000 per year. What do you make of that?

    How many white farmers have been killed or attacked in this country over the last two decades, by blacks? Or was it Oom Vlismis from the Afrikaaner Broeder Boekklub.

    You pick on the single Skierlik issue as if it were a daily event, and as common as compost. While others which are far worse such as the thirty plus deaths from being flung from moving trains during the Security Guards strike, and the sixty plus from recent xenephobia (racist) murder spree. Or was it Gerhardus and the boyscouts from Vrede.

    The daily murder rate overwhelms your ability to report on these events, to the point that you cannot keep up. So you rather find fault with Canada’s perception.

    How many white farmers have been killed and how many white innocents have been hijacked, raped and murdered recently in acts of senseless and extreme violence, because they are white? By blacks?

    Please dont shovel your compost of the highest odour our way.

  2. Lyndall Beddy on August 31st, 2009
    Australia won’t allow extradiction to SA either - the excuse being Aids in our prisons is a death sentence.

    The truth is the rest of the world knows the ANC is on a genocide against whites (farm murders the start).

  3. Ray Hartley on August 31st, 2009
    Larry. You are so much more interesting when you actually make an argument …

  4. Andre on August 31st, 2009
    Larry I could not have said it better. It was Hitler who said that if you repeat a lie long enough and loud enough it becomes the truth.

    Shame on you Ray!

  5. Ray Hartley on August 31st, 2009
    I should be ashamed for not blaming crime on black racism?? Andre, you should be ashamed.

  6. Larry Goodfella on September 1st, 2009
    Careful Ray. We dont want to blame blacks for anything. They are pure as the driven snow and we know where the fault lies….

  7. Andrew Kay on September 1st, 2009
    There is no causal link between being black and committing crime is what Ray seems to be saying, which I agree with. It’s the particularly skewed social circumstances that have faced the black population historically that must shoulder some responsibility. Certain patterns of behaviour have become cultural, and that’s the worry. It’s like the boundaries of what’s acceptable have stretched so far that to an outsider it’s absolutely horrific. What irks me is the perception that racially motivated crimes are somehow more heinous than crimes of any other sort. So gang rape, torture of the cruellest kind and the everyday occurences of almost casual brutality in SA don’t really matter, but let there be a hint of something of a racial nature, and it’s headlines all the way. Black society is in a bad way that’s for sure, and it’s time it started to accept responsibility for this. And as for the Gucci Comrades, that’s a bit of a laugh, isn’t it? And my recent experience with certain black businessmen leaves a lot to be desired - for whatever reason, I’ve been let down by the outright dishonesty they displayed. On the other hand, I’ve connected with other black clients in a real way because they’ve displayed remarkable loyalty and honesty. The situation is not one dimensional, no easy answers.

  8. Ray Hartley on September 1st, 2009
    Spot on, Andrew … er … that’s exactly what I meant to say.

  9. Larry Goodfella on September 1st, 2009
    You would say it much better, Ray, without your head firmly planted in the sand, blinded by the compulsion for political correctness - (an oxymoron if there ever was one.)

    Last year, South African Black Africans were murdering non-South African Black Africans in a race war conveniently called ‘xenophobia’, better suited to clinically describe a psychological condition.
    In 1948 (thereabouts), the conveniently called ‘Indian riots’ saw the wholesale racial murder of hundreds of South African Asian people in Natal, by Blacks because why?????

    The way things are going, it will not be long before organised mass murder sprees are again afflicting this country. Who will be the perpetrators and who will be the next victims?

    Andrew, you are of course right. It is the media who find the stories of ‘a racial nature, and its headlines all the way.’
    …and we all become racially charged, and racist attitudes become hardened.

    Thanks Ray.

    The Canadian asylum authorities can at least look at the evidence objectively without rose-tinted glasses, and they found a compelling reason to their decision. They have no motive either way. The facts dont lie.

  10. Ray Hartley on September 1st, 2009
    Larry, you are allergic to facts. The fact is that most victims of crime are black. It follows that most crimes are not racially motivated, except in the volkstaat in your head.

  11. Kwanda on September 1st, 2009
    The problem Ray is that in this country race is a sensitive issue. I wish to highlight that crime has no race it affects everyone the same. The same pain of losing a loved one from a murder hurts the same whether you are black or white. i didn’t read your article as a defence to black or white criminals but an angle to question the Canadian authorities decision on the matter.

    Having said that as a black person I have been a victim of crime many times. I didn’t blame any white person or the government but the scoiety where these criminals are groomed. A society where crime pays. A society infested with drugs,alcohol,lack of recreation etc. I came to a conclusion that if i mentor at least one young man to be somebody without crime I would have made my contribution towards a better society. Fancy alarm systems and firearms dont’t curb crime but reaching out to people and helping them realise that life with no crime is possible and is the life to be desired for all.

  12. Larry Goodfella on September 1st, 2009
    You misunderstand me Ray. I am not as hung up on race as you expect me to be.

    That most victims of crime are black, is not due to ‘many’ white perpetrators of crime, as you alluded to in your story.

    My point is that blacks have a huge predeliction to crime, especially of the violent life-ending kind. Both black and white victims abound in huge numbers. Most are black, of course, because of the population dynamics.

    There are also very many racially motivated violent crimes against whites, which are just conveniently lumped with in general crime wave that is destroying this country and its standing in the world.

    Any civilised country should give asylum to those trying to escape. We do it for other African nations refugees. What’s the problem with Canada?

  13. Ray Hartley on September 1st, 2009
    Larry, it is wrong to state that “blacks have a huge predeliction to crime, especially the violent life-ending kind”. This is just racist garbage. Whites also commit gruesome violent crimes. Do you want a list of them?

  14. G. Annandale on September 1st, 2009
    Not everybody sees us through the same eyes. We can look at his motivation and justify his and the Canadians reaction quite easily. The truth is one in twernty whites experience violent crime. One in a hundred blacks experience violent crime. Seems odds are a bit against the whites. Full “different view” at my blog

  15. G. Annandale on September 1st, 2009
    In one swooping statement the ANC vindicated Huntley and the Canadians. I am in a dice with death, I’m just not sure who will get me first, my disease or the criminals who invade our homes. I find the rhetoric of Malema, Myani, Hlope others like them particularly disturbing, imagine the feelings of someone with their lives ahead of them. I can only imagine how the stories eminating from SA must make them feel.
    I remember, about 4 years ago, I was in Toronto and they had what seemed like a gangland murder. It was front page news for days.
    Visiting business associates from Canada never seize to remark on our crime levels.

  16. Larry Goodfella on September 1st, 2009
    Ray, it is only wrong to make such a statement that “…blacks have a huge predeliction to crime, especially the violent life-ending kind”, if you subscribe to pol-correct notion that blacks may not suffer any criticism.

    This is the problem. We are faced with the choice to either be non-racist by denying ourselves the right to say BOO to blacks and black society, and freely beat ourselves up, and other whites who dare; or the choice of being labeled racist if we fail to look upon blacks as anything but a poor unfortunate oppressed people, whose societal problems are solely a result of our (white) existence.

    Please do give me a list of whites who commit violent crimes. But be good enough and honest enough as well to give us a list of blacks who do violent crime. There are not enough hours in the day to compile such a list. In fact, just write to the Dept of Correctional Facilities for a comprehensive breakdown of our white and black prison population and their reasons for incarceration. While you are about it, use your ‘reporter’ capacity to enquire with Agriforum for a list of names and dates of murdered farmers over the last fifteen years.

    You are seriously deluded.

  17. G. Annandale on September 1st, 2009
    One in Twemty whites and indians have been subjected to violent crime. One in a hundred blacks have been subjected to violent crime.

  18. Ray Hartley on September 2nd, 2009
    Wow. So there’s less theft from the poor. Astounding observation.

  19. Tumza on September 2nd, 2009
    Gees, people are so obsessed with colour.Some of them are turning colour blind,racism will never end in South Africa, I have accepted that & such things as this one happening now are not surprising.Chris Rock once said that there is nothing disgusting than a black person being shocked by racism,crime is everywhere for God’s sake,it’s just that most crimes that occur in the black communities are not reported by the Media because most journalists work close to the surburbs.It seems like this days there are only 2 colours in SA,black & white.What’s happening here in SA is pathetic

  20. Eli Jikelele on September 2nd, 2009
    Two observations on the Ray/Larry debate:

    1. I agree with only part of Larry’s gripe that the article is not very balanced and does smell a bit of political correctness.

    2. Larry’s anger again shows up his racist slip.


    My take on the crime situation in South Africa is quite simple. More blacks than whites are suffering from excessive levels of crime by mostly heavily armed black males. Whether this is political or not depends on who you speak to. Any criminal with means (transport, guns, infrastructure, etc) will also target affluent areas. In South Africa that means mostly white residents because they own the most material wealth not simply because they are white.

    The root cause is that we have a corrupt, incompetent government who is soft on crime only because they do not really know how to deal with it. There is not a single ANC cadre who has shown any of the qualities needed to tackle our exploding crime problem. The top leadership all talk a good game but there has not been a political will to tackle crime since the 1994 elections.

    Criminals have been taking their cue from the lawlessness of our political masters. Like the Nats, the ANC truly believe that “Might is Right”. The first crop of politicians appointed after the 1994 elections quickly learnt what they had been missing out on during the struggle and quickly adopted the dirty self-enrichment behaviours of their former oppressors. Many of the modern day political leaders have not even contributed a stitch during the struggle but quite happily live according to the often-quoted credo of “ we didn’t participate in the struggle to be poor.”

    Who must we blame when our political leaders have been advocating race differences, intolerance and retribution against whites. Canada’s view on Huntley is a poor reflection on the ANC regime. My only complaint with Canada’s position is that they should widen the refugee status for fleeing South Africans to include Indian, Coloured and Black refugees fleeing from the violence allowed by the ANC government.

  21. Trevor on September 2nd, 2009
    ANC always play the race card. To me they are the biggest racists around. Good luck to Brandon Huntley he’ll never have to worry about racism again.

  22. Larry Goodfella on September 2nd, 2009
    Eli and Ray,

    I am in a better position than Ray because I do not have to moderate my views as he may feel is necessary of his title and employment.

    To pronounce on my being ‘racist’, is to presume to know me. You are both welcome to disagree with me but to use the ‘racist’ label to justify your oppositional viewpoints, is sad and sadly as common as murder in this country.

    My belief that black South Africans and black society have a ‘predeliction to murder’ is supported by overwhelming evidence. I have embarked on a long-time study and collection of newsclippings relating to muti murders and witch murders. These are the extreme events which are very common. It is an incredible list involving many thousands of deaths, - of black people.

    The ‘predeliction’ is far more pervasive than we can imagine, and it simmers in seemingly ordinary people, not far below the surface. Remember the ‘necklacing’ and recent ‘xenephobic’ attacks. Genocides in Africa are not the organised military precision of the Holocaust - they are community based.

    One of my ‘racist’ observations is that it is taboo to bring up this subject. It seems that dismembered children and old burnt up gogo’s is just a rural anomoly - out of sight and out of mind. To question this very common practice is to question the culture and tradition of black societies, and we all know how utterly ‘racist’ that is.

    Eli, I am angry because I care. Is saddens me that even you cannot empathise sufficiently to sift through the ‘race’ clutter to find the truthful state of affairs of African society in todays modern world. You do have the answer, but you misdirect it only against the ANC. The ANC is Africa personified.

  23. Eli Jikelele on September 3rd, 2009

    Your generalizations that blacks are basically barbaric and are foul-smelling are simply based on a racist paradigm. The modern day ANC is mostly corrupt and incompetent and dominated by blacks but it does not follow that all South African blacks are incompetent and corrupt. If they were, they would be no hope for our beloved country.

    Most whites have racist viewpoints but what the ANC does not want to acknowledge is that more and more are learning to modify their language and behaviours. The way forward for us as a nation is to hold on to the dream of a rainbow nation and to realize more and more of the dream by working together to unseat our corrupt oppressors.

  24. Ray Hartley on September 3rd, 2009
    Larry - The problem arises when you say that an entire people of a certain colour are inherently associated with some kind of behaviour. That is racism. It is the impostion of a negative stereotype which is based on your prejudices rather than on the facts, which show otherwise.

  25. Kwanda on September 3rd, 2009
    Well Larry if you have the study can we have the figures. The point of the matter is that crime has no race. To attach race to crime is cynical and dumb. The matter at hand is that Hurdley painted a picture which is not realistic. I have been called a baboon by some white people even a K—r for that matter. did I attack them,did I break into their house or hijack them. Not at all. Now if all crime victims went to Canada will Canada grant them asylum,I think not.

    People can blame the ANC for all the troubles of society. My take on the matter is the breakdown in the family structure. We have kids who grow up as orphans,single-parent families and all the other factors breaking down the family. This is a sociological problem and not a race problem.

    I would assume my learned colleague,Larry would think I deserve my house being broken into 3times and mugged twice,because I am black and I voted ANC so it serves me well.

  26. Eli Jikelele on September 3rd, 2009
    @ Kwanda: You make a number of good and valid points. I believe, however, that the ANC has proven itself to be both soft on crime and unable to do something about it. The ANC government must shoulder the bulk of the blame for our country sliding into a state of anarchy where criminals rule the roost with total impunity. We can’t even play the race card and blame the whites when many senior black ANC leaders continuously make a mockery of our judiciary.

  27. Larry Goodfella on September 3rd, 2009
    While my view may be extreme, and even racist, in your opinions, it cannot be rejected out of hand.

    My community and race group do not suffer the nonsensical mass belief of body part harvesting and witchcraft which results in mass hysteria attacks on defenseless elderly octenegerians; - or create the black market industry for fingers, hands, lips, eyes and genitalia for medicinal use.

    Just because it does not afflict ‘my’ grouping of fellow countrymen, does not mean that I should not comment or have a negative opinion of such gruesome behavior. This is real, it happens and it is a ‘negative steriotype’ indictment on black people in general.

    Kwanda, I have not got a compiled list, but I have a suitcase full of new clippings. Are you suggesting that these murders and witchcraft are a figment of my immagination?

    Ray, what you are saying is that we are all lacking of cultural and ethnic characeristics that set us apart. Or, that we do have steriotypical differences but we may not mention these for fear of hurting other’s feelings. You may ascribe to this naivette, but I will not. If that is racism, then I am a racist - unashamedly.
    A ‘negative steriotype can be countered by a positive steriotype. Perhaps, you should be countering my arguement rather that rubbishing it.

  28. Andrew Kay on September 3rd, 2009
    Larry, racism is responsible for more than just hurting people’s feelings. It resulted in the systematic murder and oppression of millions of black people on the one hand through centuries of slavery, and more recently resulted in the systematic murder of millions of Jews and others in the 2nd world war. You are right to condemn acts of brutality and barbarity agaisnt citizens of this and other countries in Africa, but beware of making racist generalisations. It’s not OK to be racist, just get that clear.

  29. Larry Goodfella on September 3rd, 2009
    Andrew Kay,

    ‘Racism’ has become synonymous with hatred. Consider that my commentary on race and race relations may be hurtful, but that I do not have the personal capacity for hatred.

    As an elderly Jew, I have been personally afflicted by the holocaust. How I wish that more people had stood up against the Nazis, or should they have not been steriotyped.

    There are advanced societies and there are those struggling to disengage from their primitive ‘predelictions’ at a pace which is detrimental to their advancement. This is nobodies fault. These societies mix, and in Africa, it is a volatile recipe for conflict.

    There are millions of refujoe’s and refujane’s that have been afforded asylum in this country because of Africans conflicting with Africans. They have sought asylum in the UK and Canada as well.

12 Opinion(s):

FishEagle said...

Larry Goodfella, you did great!

FishEagle said...

P.S. That smug face of Ray Hartley is enough to give me diarrea. Cowardice sack of shit. Wonder who's going to give him a good pat on the back for that piece of drivel.

Anonymous said...

Nothing good comes out of the Sunday Slimes. I recall I had a spitting contest with him about the Bullard article. He simply could not see the truth much like he could not see the truth about hate crimes.

It is this sort of closed minds which will break the country - well they have come there already.

Good luck to people who still hold onto the DA or the ANC. The country is bugged both ways. What is coming out of old Zilles mouth is starting to sound like Hartley.

Exzanian said...

WOW - Incisive post Dobes! One of the best exchanges I have read for a looong while! Ray Hartley almost seems to be reading from a script on all his re-joinders and you can almost hear him in the background ruffling the papers for more promps to parrot from as the truth comes raining down!

I mean, just read this piece of shit he vomited up "That is racism. It is the imposition of a negative stereotype which is based on your prejudices rather than on the facts, which show otherwise." rhubard, rhubarb.

And I luuuuv the way Larry tripped Hartley up on that sleight-of-hand trick... "The truth is that the overwhelming majority of crime victims in this country are black and many of the perpetrators are white"

Larry responded "Do you mean to say that whites perpetrate the majority of crimes against black victims? We know that you do not mean this, but why dont you rather say it like it is instead of being obfuscating?"

Brilliant! Made my day!!!

Anonymous said...

I agree. Once you counter liberals or "anti-racists" with lucid arguments and that horrible word "facts" that the left despise so much, their thinking disintegrates and Larry did that. He tore Hartley's PC infested article to pieces and showed he was the better man. All Hartley could do was make snide remarks because unlike newspaper print, blogging which invites comments is "live" and you have to answer to your views. I fear Hartley was just spewing the standard PC brown-nose garb required of an editor as Larry pointed out and methinks he would say something else in private.

Anonymous said...

The liberatis's "racist" call in defense came out quickly, was just waiting on the coup de grace "nazi" calling.

Oh my, so difficult to have an argument with the blinkered lot, Larry did a excellent task of taking them on.

Anonymous said...

Larry for President!!

Viking said...

Great post! had to read it a second time to get the full effect.
I think many commentators have neglected the point that black-on-black crime in townships involves neighbours robbing neighbours, or people being in the wrong place at the wrong time, whereas black-on-white crime involves forward planning, and requires a long journey to a "white" area for the specific purpose of robbing white people. The two are fundamentally different, and in the latter case the victims are racially profiled. It's as simple as that.

Quark said...

I find Andrew Kay (and many other folk's) conflation of racism and war atrocities very annoying. It is yet another illustration of the confusion associated with the word 'racism'. I'm a racist. I think it's OK to be racist. To me, racism does not mean hunting down and killing members of another race. It merely means enjoying the right to live in a place which excludes blacks. The right to associate with people of my choice. A choice which I would prefer not to have to make, but is absolutely necessary due to blacks' ingrained predisposition to violence and crime. How is it that a government can take this right away from me? Does having this right (and thereby earning me the label 'racist') make me a dangerous or less desirable person? If separating two groups results in LESS crime and MORE PEACE, then surely advocating racism would be the RIGHT and MORAL thing to do?? And perhaps there could be a special reserve set aside for those masochists who want to do race-mixing. Good luck to them.

Sam Dunne said...

Everybody needs to calm down a little bit and try out their common sense...

Fact 1: most victims of crime are black

Fact 2: most perpetrators of crime are black

The explanation of both fact one and fact two is simple mathematics. A cross section of our population shows that majority of our population is black. Thus any cross section of any other portion of the population will display mostly black members: especially if the portion is NOT racially based.

Fact 3: Xenophobia did occur.

This was wrongly defined by Larry Goodfella as racism. This is not in fact racism, but rather the fear of the unknown of different. This can manifest itself as either Black on Wgite, White on black OR South Africans and Foreigners. (as was the case)Thus the xenophobia we experienced was not racist.

Fact 4: Much crime experienced by white people is perpetrated by black people.

This is easily explained by the past injustices. (Note: not justified or condoned, just explained) This is also a matter of simple maths. Much of the have-nots population is black and much of the haves population is white. Thus crime on the basis of need or feeding oneself WILL be perpetrated against white people by black people.

Thus this entire debate has been on the basis of four facts which have been incorrectly analyzed. Race is an issue in our country, but may not be the cause of EVERY issue in our country.

Thank you

Viking said...


I am sitting down quite calmly now you'll be pleased to hear. I imagine someone will give you a bollicking soon enough, so here's my 2 cents before that happens.
You made some sense right up until declaring that the xenophobic attacks are not racist - I'm wondering what your definition is. "racism" used to be about hatred and violence, alright, but the PC brigade has widened the definition somewhat since I was at school.
Black South Africans bashing other Africans is racist, I really can't understand why you say it isn't.

If an Irishman punches a Pole, he'll get done for it and be called racist. They're both white, though - but racism legislation incorporates ethnic identity and nationality now doncha know.

Someone who says the targeting of Somalis and Zambians was not racist is really saying, 'they're all the same those darkies', which is I'm sure not what you meant to imply.

Your final point too is innaccurate. When a black man sees and white man and thinks, hey I bet he has some money I can steal, that subsequent crime is

It is racially motivated because it involves profiling. Whites = $$$. Simple equation. That it may be true is irrelevant.
It may not be motivated by hate, but as I've already stated, hatred has ceased to be the only definition of racism.

Finally, the discrepancies in wealth are not necessarily caused by past injustices. Wealth does not create poverty, poverty does.

Anonymous said...

@Sam. I almost got through the first line. Where have you been whilst this debate has been raging?

You come here and impart a pearl of wisdom, "simple mathematics"; well blow me down.

That is tantamount to opening the door, letting the sun shine in, and hearing the divine Hallelujah being sung by angels...not.

God almighty, Sam, you are stating the bleeding obvious. But you aren't on the same page, son.

We are all talking about proportionality. Quite another matter, and contrary to your "facts".

Xenophobia, the last time I checked, mean't fear or hatred of foreigners; so yes, I will concede you may be correct on this one, but so what.

As for your "past injustices" claim; a convenient scapegoat, but correlation does not equate to causation.