Tuesday, July 21, 2009

Xolela Mangcu screams racism at David Bullard (again)

Business Day columnist Xolela Mangcu, who led the calls for David Bullard's sacking from the Sunday Times last year, stirs up another fight with Bullard in Business Day.

Seems Mangcu can't stand the fact that audiences find "unreconstructed racist" Bullard more interesting than his own fishwrap peecee ramblings.

When he can't win the argument, Mangcu typically screams racism at Bullard; but not without coming up with some seriously racist threats of his own.

Whites had better listen up, and listen up good, to what blacks will do to them and their children if they don't shut up ...

****

David Bullard has released an email exchange between himself and senior nonresident fellow at the Brookings Institution and Business Day columnist, Xolela Mangcu.

This follows Mangcu's claim over the weekend that Bullard had, in an email, threatened to sue him "and bring misery to my family and children." This Mangcu added was crossing the line. "As an adult I can take care of myself, but leave my family and children out of this. But for Bullard there are no boundaries when it comes to black people."

In the version of the correspondence released by Bullard on Monday there is no apparent threat to sue Mangcu - or to bring misery to his family. Bullard does say: "See you at Constitution Hill [the home of the Constitutional Court] I hope." But this is a reference not to legal proceedings but to an earlier online challenge to Mangcu to meet him "in live debate at Constitution Hill."

The exchange was triggered by an attack on Bullard by Mangcu in his Business Day column last week. Mangcu asked rhetorically "how does an unreconstructed racist such as David Bullard achieve the status of a superstar in the white community?"

This triggered an emailed reply from Bullard, and an acrimonious exchange ensued between the two men.

The bad blood between the two columnists dates from last year when Mangcu led the calls for Bullard's sacking over a satirical column in the Sunday Times mocking the notion that all Africa's woes stemmed from colonial intrusion.

In a follow up column published in Business Day on April 17 2008 Mangcu warned that if the white minority did not mend their ways - and denounce what he regarded as Bullard's racism - they risked bringing violent repercussions down upon themselves and their young children.

He stated: "I still have the hope that the all-too-easy defensive reflexes of racism will give way to long-term thinking about the safety of all those defenceless [white] children, who will be left to reap the whirlwind of [black] hate."

The Mangcu emails - as released by David Bullard:

This was sent at 07h50 on 17th July

Hi there Xolela

I am pleased to see you're giving me lots of free advertising in your columns. Last week you mentioned that you thought I was looking for a job. I appreciate your concern and know that you will sleep much better knowing that, partly thanks to you, I have never been more in demand. There are currently two internet columns and one on the way (sponsored by a large insurer) and the usual print stuff. I'm also busy on the speaking and MC circuit once again. There was a lull after the sacking but things improved when people realized that Makhanya was lying and that the Sunday Times had no credibility.

I spoke to a packed and appreciative audience at a dinner on Bastille Day and I have done quite a few swanky corporate events of late. In fact, next month I am off to Mozambique to do a three day stint with Alec Hogg for Wits Business School. Five days in a luxury resort....just imagine. Better than hanging around Hyde Park all day.

I am a guest speaker at the book fair in Richmond in October and have been booked for a quasi govt do in 2010. So please don't worry about my ability to pay the bills.

See you at Constitution Hill I hope. Don't spend all that money that Tokyo gave you at once....you might have to find a real job.

Best wishes to Mrs Mangcu and those gorgeous children.

Keep the barbs coming....I love ‘em.

All the best

David

This reply [from Xolela Mangcu] sent at 11.10 on 17th July

Wow, what a charmed existence. Congratulations. By the way one column is all i need to make a conclusion about whether someone is an unreconstructed racist or not - especially after they have given a public apology, best, Xolela

This came a minute later

Oh by the way, you might have to come up with some real evidence about Tokyo giving me money. I'd like to see evidence of it myself, best, Xolela

And this an hour after

Put simply - an unreconstructed racist is someone who expresses and publishes racist views. Period.

To which I replied at 18h02 on 17th July

Maybe you should see a therapist....you have all this anger in you and I think it's probably because you know you are a fraud. I mean....that doctorate....and all that bragging about the Brookings Institution. Real people don't do that sort of thing. This has given you a huge inferiority complex which makes you see everything as racist if it's said by an educated white man like myself. Even black people are cringing with embarrassment at your utterances. You need to reinvent yourself. Let me help you. Read the Bizday on Monday for the solution.

In the meantime have a fine weekend. Mrs B and I are away in the mountains. A log fire burning and not a care in the world. Next week I drive a new Bentley down to the Midlands and life is indeed sweet....even for an "unreconstructed racist". They've even thoughtfully cut eyeholes in my pillow cases!!!!! (NB That was a joke....I know you're a bit deficient in the sense of humour dept.)

Up and onward.

David

This reply sent at 21h52 on 17th July

Looks like I may have to get an interdict to stop you from writing these e-mails to me, Xolela

To which I replied at 12h07 on 18th July

My dear Xolela

My my....you are an old grouch aren't you. Here am I, full of brotherly love, urging you to go to therapy for your own good and what response do I get? A threat of an interdict.

If you put your e.mail address on your weekly column you surely must expect responses. So to get an interdict after doing that would make you look an even bigger plonker than you do already. Can you imagine the mockery that would follow? You...an "intellectual" and a member of the famed Brookings Institute failing to engage in friendly banter with your readers? Tut tut? What happened to the "think" part of "think tank'? No my dear chap, I urge you to reconsider. And please go for some Freudian analysis. I think it might help you.

Meanwhile, a happy Mandela day to you and don't forget to devote 67 minutes to somebody else. It can't always be about you.

Wishing you a fine weekend.

David

End of correspondence

69 Opinion(s):

Vanilla Ice said...

Bloody marvellous. Bullard really is exposing Mangcu's intellect for the fraud that it is.

Ranger Tom said...

What a peckerhead... I loved the part "If said by a white man..."

So very true!

Exzanian said...

"Looks like I may have to get an interdict to stop you from writing these e-mails to me, Xolela"
Brilliant, playing not only the race card, but the morally incensed and stalker card as well!!!Well done Bullard for exposing a spineless little prick.

Vanilla Ice said...

@RT. There is a history here. David Bullard, a wealthy stock trader come columnist, was fired for an article that was widely deemed to be the truth about Africa. Of course the blacks objected, and branded him a racist. Click here to read the original article.

Ranger Tom said...

Thanks for the article VI. How true it is...

Black Coffee said...

Truth about Africa? Hmm.. according to who? According to Bullard and Vanilla Ice? You know, I hate to talk about things I do not know about and I know that IQ is your forte, it least so it appears. That's why I did not want to say more about the IQ issue until I read more about it, particularly things on Internet which look scientific. The more I read about the IQ issue though the more it seems that my hunch was correct and that this whole IQ business - and not just you but also the Bell Curve, Watson, etc - is nothing more than good old pseudoscience in new bottles. It is of same type as Europeans in 19th century used to justify racism and subjugation. It may be worthwhile to revisit a book from way back in 1940s - "Man's most dangerous myth: the fallacy of race" by Montagu.

Vanilla Ice said...

@BC. I should be so lucky as to be alikened to the likes of Dr. Watson. In my dreams. However, I will take you seriously once you achieve a similar stature amongst your peers.

Vanilla Ice said...

@RT. To fill in more of the gaps. Mangcu is an AA "academic" that doesn't have a published record, but he happens to have obtained a Ph.D from Cornell university. To quote from Business Day, "I would like to see some of his scholarly work, including books, solid researched journals and his teachings — his contribution to reproduction of knowledge in general." He is similar to your Gates at Harvard.

It is alleged that he received shares from an AA billionaire, Tokyo Sekwale, which is how he became wealthy. His field of expertise is, unbelievably, City Planning. Yet he claims authority on any subject he deems worthy. Black Africa hold him up as being a true intellectual, a philosopher. All I see is the racist rantings of a fraud. Frankly, if he is intelligent, I wouldn't put him further than the upper end of 3 standard deviations from his groups mean.

In other words, BC, that is more intelligent than 99.7% of his group. But that only makes his IQ 108, somewhat lower than is required for a good Bachelors Degree; and definitely lower than David Bullard. Perhaps he is a Black Swan.

Viking said...

@Vanilla Ice
On the subject of IQ, I've finally had the chance to review the links you sent, and found the literature fascinating. The conclusions square completely with other sources I've read and make sense in terms of my own worldview as well. There are one or two questions, but maybe you can provide an answer. Under Rushton's theory, are American Indians part of the "Oriental" group, as they are ethnically related to the Chinese? And, if so, ought they not, as they have also migrated furthest from Africa of all races, have the highest IQs under the schema?
I am also not clear as to whether Indians (of the India variety) are considered Oriental or Caucasian or a mix of both. Certainly, North Indians are Aryans but what about South Indians? Genetic evidence says they are closer to Africans.
But in any case, brilliant reading!

Doberman said...

Mangcu vs Bullard is like watching Goofy take on Mohammed Ali. Not in the same league. The problem is Mangcu doesn't know HE is Goofy.

Vanilla Ice said...

@Viking. You are as knowledgeable as me now. Have you read IQ and the Wealth of Nations? That provides clarity on recorded IQs. I'm not sure how that squares with the migration theory though.

Dachshund said...

@BC: Tell me, BC, what is your friend Rooster going to do when Chinese commissars take over his mansion for military purposes? Are you going to offer him free board and lodging in Ohio? Or do you only do that for your really African friends?

Anonymous said...

With people like BC who the hell needs blacks?

Anonymous said...

@ Anon... 22 July 2009 9:53 PM

Good question...

I for one don't need them, have never needed them, and for all intents and purposes will never need them. They cost you more than they add in value.

My wife and I both work, come home and take care of the business... The clothes, dishes and kids are all clean by six thirty, supper is on the go and the house has been given a once over with the vacuum, broom, mop and duster. Saturday mornings after the kids have represented their school in sport, they get stuck into the house with mom scrubbing windows etc. while I do the lawn and beds. At 1400m2 it can take a while. A leaf blower/vacuum does more work at half the cost of any "guddin boi" I have ever employed.

I now save (and have for the past year or so):
R125.00 x 2 x 3 x 52 = R 39,000.00 a year that I can spend on MY FAMILY, MY INTERESTS and MY BENEFIT. Four weeks in Pemba or some other nice warm locale will cost about that for the four of us... And we all get a bit of a workout - Double the BONUS. KA-Ching!!!

So... GET RID OF THE PARASITES!!! AND GET ON WITH LIFE!!!

You DO NOT NEED them. They NEED us a lot more than we need them.

They need you to support them.

You just need to pull finger.

Black Coffee said...

VI obviously nothing I say will change your mind on the IQ issue. Nor will what scientists who oppose your views, you simply dismiss them as "non-scientific" or what was the basis on which you dismissed the posting from a Princeton U grad student on the subject that I sent you? Viking - so far you have appeared not to be racist, don't be so quick to buy into this IQ propaganda, or as Chuck D of Public Enemy said "don't believe the hype." It's just another pseudo-scientific method that some whites use to comfort themselves by reassuring themselves that they belong to a superior group of human beings (which of course is not true).
I have met Xolela Mangcu and interviewed him and he strikes me as very intellectual. On the other hand I only know of Bullard from that controversial column he wrote which even if it was not racist, it was based on old ideas of European cultural superiority.
Dach - are you saying that because of a few Chinese investments they are taking over South Africa?

Anonymous said...

@BC - get off this post you idiot. The ANC website needs you!

Vanilla Ice said...

@BC. This will be a shot across the bows. You are flaunting with being permanently removed from this site. Don't come here and suggest people are racist simply because our views are informed, well researched and in opposition to your drivel. Moreover, you attempt to influence those that are neutral, by suggesting that they would be racist if their common sense leads them to a different conclusion to yours. How dare you? Either you advance a debate or you fuck off, nobody is interested in your stupid dogma; so stop trolling. You are a poor example of an alleged scientist. You have no clue and it is a disgrace that you represent yourself as what can be expected from US universities. Pray tell, as an alleged Ph.D student, why would it be relevant to consider an ill-conceived article by a graduate student when I have considered the arguments by reknowned authors on the subject? Is this how you conduct research for your fish wrap thesis? Moreover, the reknowned authors do not dogmatically repeat a mantra that reinforces a white view. They desperately seek truth to the claims made by the hysterical fringe fanatics, like you. But, quite simply, multiple methodologies continue to yield naught. They are scientists, not agenda bearing politicians. The heady stuff of truth, regardless of what it yields, is what they deal in; which is more than I can say for you. You, like your ilk, do nothing to provide proof to the contrary but are quick to denounce good science as being a fraud or good scientists as being racists. I find it insulting to all the good science and scientists; and frankly your level of enquiry is so pedestrian. So, again, for the last time - progress the debates or leave; you won't be missed. Your poorly informed dogma is not welcome any longer. As for Mangcu, I don't give a damn what you think he is; he does not fit the definition of an intellectual, nor is there evidence of it.

Black Coffee said...

VI - it is up to you and Doberman, as the people who run this blog, whether or not to allow my posts. However, what does it mean to "advance the debate." It appears you are merely intolerant of alternative views. How do you know those "scientists" are not agenda-bearing politicians? They may not be politicians, but I believe the authors of "Bell Curve" may very well have had an agenda before they researched (supposedly) and wrote their book. Look at www.pbs.org/race. On other hand, the arguments you advance about IQ differences are being used by www.zasucks.com to go into lengthy articles about "superiority of white race." Among the evidence they cite is poverty of Haiti - black-ruled since about 1800. Never mind the fact that for much of its history Haiti was isolated from international trade and subject to repeat occupations by US Marines since early 20th century. Haiti is dirt poor - black rule must have caused it is the theory.
On IQ scores - consider that if we, you and I, had to learn Zulu and then take an IQ test that some native-Zulu speaking educator designed I would bet we would have very poor scores while an indigenous Zulu person would have very high results.

Islandshark said...

Oh please, BC is a PhD student citing The Sowetan as source. There is enough wrong in that single statement to ignore him for the next 1,000 years.

Vanilla Ice said...

@BC. Suffice to say, a decision will be made as to whether you continue on this blog. You are so obviously an amateur, who has no grasp of the concept of advancing knowledge. It is just laughable reading your drivel. The authors have a political agenda? Which means that there needs to be a complex conspiracy, including journal editors, peers, publishers and the like.

Are you thick? It seems so. We have already covered test bias, and so has the literature. Why do you return to that? This is an example of you not being able to move beyond the basics. This is the last time I am going to join the dots for you. If we both learnt Mandarin and took the test, we would be equally biased. Yet East Asians excel. Why is that if race is a social construct? Is this Psychology 101?

Intolerant of alternative views? No. I am intolerant of stupidity and repetition. As regards SAS, KillAWhitey, KKK, whomever; I don't care who uses the evidence. The evidence is what it is, and the conclusions we arrive at may well be similar. Your point?

You don't have the intellectual courage to acknowledge evidence. You have a conflict between what you deem to be morally righteous, and the evidence. If you can't acknowledge the evidence, when it doesn't fit your utopian hypothesis don't become a researcher; you will be spotted for a fraud. You already are.

Anonymous said...

i am an averaged white presently very disadvantaged sa citizen.Just made matric late eighties.poor poor family and so on and forth.i read this blog all the time and eagerly await insights from people like vanilla ice,dobermanand dachshund etc.Then this fuckin nobody BC starts talking bullshit drivel attacking bladdy well researched evidence.can someone just tell bc to fuckoff

Anonymous said...

dont give this bc airtime here.blog only for intellectuals.

Ranger Tom said...

The main problem I have with BC and his ilk is this: You can spout all the thoeries and 'facts' in certain studies and reports, but myself, and I believe a fair number of others contributing on this site have REAL WORLD experience in the matter.

There is no substitute for that. I have been in the REAL WORLD for well over 27 years. Are you telling me I'm to stupid to see what's in front of my own eyes, and if I only read in books what you're spouting as the real truth about IQ's and such?

Until you open your eyes to what's really going on in the world, to me you will still be some intellectual dildoe sitting in his ivory tower of academia not having a clue on how the world and it's peoples really work.

A professor once told me while I was in college that a Phd. is a doctor in "theory"... Theory being a thought that's not directed to facts because they don't know shit.

I would have loved to have you on a "Ride Along" with me when I was a cop... Drop you off at the next drug corner and see how far your liberal dogma would protect you... I'd give you 10 minutes.

That my myopic freind, is Darwinism at it's sharp end.

You think, because of your liberal thoughts, that they care one whit about you? You're just another do-good Marvin Milquetoast, and as I said before they laugh at you behind your back.

Spend a few years in the military. Go out and see the world apart from a Student Visa. Se REAL poor people like I have. Spend 60 hours a week as a cop in a ghetto where they really don't want you there, be sniped at from rooftops. Have garbage thrown at you. Be spit on daily. Be called Gray Meat, Honkie, Cracker... Just for doing your job.

Do that for ten years and see if you have a different outlook. Am I jaded & disillusioned? Your damn straight I'm jaded and disillusioned.

They don't want your help. They laugh at you. They just want a free ride on the tax dollar and will stop at nothing to bring you down to thier level, because, God forbid, they bring themselves up. Because bringing themselves up to our level would mean the negation of everything they've been jamming down our throats for the last 50 or so years.

And they couldn't have that, could they?

They'd be Uncle Toms... They'd be selling out to Whitey.

Why work hard and earn what you make when you can have the Government give it all to you?

Doberman said...

@ RT, well spoken my friend. I too, like VI (ex cop) and many others who've done their bit in the military understand the REAL world, not imagined egalitarian utopias that the Left and liberals believe the world to be. The world is what it is, hard, cold, brutal because PEOPLE are cold, hard and brutal. That's the nature of the human condition.

I believe people are not born equal and you earn equality like everything else. If I'm honest, live by a fair set of codes and ethics, then a person not doing the same exploiting others is NOT my equal and thus has not earned the right to be my equal.

With the Left however, the premise is first, people are identical (when evidence proves it otherwise) and if only we can get everybody else to see that - then the world will fall neatly into some sort of equilibrium where there is no hatred, no injustice, and where everyone has the same values. Well, for that to happen, you need to wait for human evolution to catch up since many cultures still live in the dark ages. In the meantime, the Left tinkers with social engineering to FORCE those still living in the dark ages to meld with those of us that are enlightened. It's like getting the king of the jungle, the lion to stop being regal and powerful until the warthog is his equal but since that's not possible, we'll legislate so that the lion's hands are tied to balance out the odds.

Unfortunately BC lacks the experience of the real world, and so he will remain ignorant until he gets off campus and hits the mean streets of Johannesburg (or Detroit for example) so he can SEE just how illusory his views are. You say 10 minutes, I say less.

Ranger Tom said...

@ Doberman. So very true. But then again, let's take the easy route. Let's bring everyone else down instead of striving towards a better goal.

Let's burn down our own nieghborhoods, loot our own stores, just to get what WE want.

Animalistic?

Of course it is.

In theory, the just should prevail.

In theory.

But it doesn't in reality. The loudest voice gets heard, no matter if it's right or wrong.

Forgive me, but this is the best analogy between the difference of "Theory" & "Reality", a joke told to me by a philosophy professor I had while I was still a cop and in University. It goes like this:

Little Johnnny came home one day with a problem he needed solving for school the next day. He asked his father.

"Dad, I neeed to explain the difference between theory and reality by tomorrow for school..."

"Ok son, sit down here. First thing I want you to do is go out to the kitchen and ask your mother if she would sleep with a strange man for a million dollars..."

"Oh Dad, I can't do that!"

"Just do it son!"

So little Johnny goes out and comes back to his dad...

"So son, what did your mother say?"

"Yes dad, she'd sleep with a strange man for a million dollars."

"Ok son, here what I want you to do next. Go upstairs and ask your sister Suzie the same question."

"Dad! I can't do that!"

"Just go ahead son!"

So little Johnny goes upstairs and returns minutes later.

"So son, what did Suzie say?"

"Yeah Dad, she'd sleep with a strange man for a million dollars too..."

"Ok son. Sit down. Here's the difference inbetween theory and reality."

"In THEORY, you and I are sitting on two million dollars."

"Yeah dad?"

"And in reality, you and I are living with a couple of whores!"

And that's what I think of theory at this point in my life.

All the books, papers and pie charts can all go into the garbage heap, because I know what I see in my every day life to be the real world.

Black Coffee said...

Doberman - for six months I did hit the streets of Johannesburg, and the streets there are not all that mean. It depends a lot on where you go as I've said many times before.
RT - before my trip to South Africa, I lived in what you might call a "ghetto" area of Washington, DC on Kennedy Street, NW. When I moved there in 1999 an area did not get much worse than Kennedy Street, with drug deals, break-ins, robberies, shootings, you name it. I did not let that nor my experience of getting mugged in Johannesburg make me racist. You on other hand by your own admission have not even set foot in South Africa, yet you are ready to believe the negative propaganda about it. Let me tell you - I heard a lot of stories on Internet before I went to SA about the crime there. Back then in 2005 and 2006 as I was getting ready to go, in addition to sites like this and southafricaiscrap (now zasucks) there was a lot of crime stories on South African news sites. So despite everything I'd seen in DC, I was horrified about going, and I gave my parents power-of-attorney over everything I had - mainly car and computer, so they could get it in case I did not return. What I found is that there are lots of problems, you do have to be careful, but it's not nearly as bad as some present. But until you experience it for yourself - you simply have no idea and part of problem, I think, is that Africa gets so much bad press and historically has a reputation for everything horrific.

Doberman said...

@ BC, four words for you: FIFTY MURDERS EVERY DAY. You can dress it up any way you like but the fact is 50 people, MY people, will die today, and tomorrow, and the day after that.

That's 20 000+ murders a year that is apparently inconsequential to you because what matters to you is that we let blackie government stay on in power to try and get this "governing" thing right.

No way, these numbers matter the fuck to me and so I will keep trying to do something about it while you count your lucky stars that your number did not come up while you were there - BUT it WILL, of that you can be certain. I'll put good money on it and especially the way you think as a white that you can wonder the streets of black townships. Good luck with that. You won't survive one night walking at night in Soweto as a white if you are unescorted and you know that.

Best you stop yakking, and get on over there ASAP and start living there permanently where you don't have locals to escort you around. Live the life of the locals, bring your parents, siblings, aunts and uncles, bring EVERYBODY and then talk. When you've done worrying about the next phone call that could mean something has happened to a loved one then you have earned the right to talk but until then you HAVE NO RIGHT.

Until then, like you say, all YOU have heard is what you read on these blogs and the short time you experienced there but us locals that have lived there with our families and children for decades, we've earned our stripes. Besides it's MY fucking country capish!

Ranger Tom said...

@BC. Six whole months. A whole six months. So that gives you the right to sit in judgemnt over people who've lived there their entire lives?

And you're right. I've not been there. Not yet. Someday maybe. But I've been to places a whole lot worse.

Kennedy St NW?

Been there.

A kintergarten class compaired to where I worked. A vistiting cop from another municipality was visiting once and compaired the police district where I worked to Beruit in the mid 80's.

Six months... Hmm...

I jumped into Grenada in October of 1983 and was wounded there.

I spent three YEARS in Honduras, El Salvador, Gutamala, Panama, from 1985 to 1988. You probably weren't even out of grade school then.

I've sat atop a M-113 Armored Personell carrier at the inner German Border and stared face to face with a Soviet T80 tank.

Mommy and Daddy didn't have power of attorney.

I saw REAL poverty.

You are just a sham.

Six months?

And you got mugged?

Big deal.

I've been knifed, shot, clubbed and put into intesive care more times than I care to remember.

I've got the war wounds. I've got the battle scars.

You are nothing but a know-nothing do-gooder from an over priveledged family who's gotten everything he's ever wanted in life, never had to work a hard day in your life and feels guilty about it so you're on some great Crusade to assauge your guilt onto other people.

People like you make me physically ill.

You are nothing but a hollow puppet, but I know you're also thin-skinned, because of past comments on how I've insulted you. Learn to be a MAN first and you'll be able to take insults like a MAN.

Well, you know what? I frankly don't care if you're insulted or not.

Because people like ME have fought and bled and DIED for your right to your opinion.

You, on the otherhand have done nothing but live off mommy & daddy's teat, traipsing about the world on a student visa bemoaning how bad the white man is instead of being a man, shutting your mouth for once and actually DOING something.

It's trogladytes like you who make me actually ashamed to tell people I'm an American.

You want to know who the Ugly American really is?

Look into the mirror, then you'll know.

Doberman said...

Well said RT. People like BC haven't a clue. Let's hope he does go through with moving to SA and gets to enjoy South Africa's other "wildlife" in earnest this time. A mugging doesn't count.

Ranger Tom said...

@ Doberman... I don't know how I'd handle 50 homicides a day. It's truely amazing that you guys haven't risen up in arms (literally) and tried to stop this. If you did, I'd be on the next plane there to fight along side.

Ranger Tom said...

@Doberman: I'd pay dearly to be a fly on the wall then!

Doberman said...

@ RT, can you imagine? We are abt 1/7th of your population (40-45 mil). Can you imagine the States having 350 murders every day, 365 days a year? Can you imagine the outrage in the US? Your murder rate is abt 5.8/100 000, ours is 45/100 000.

Then we get douche bags like BC saying we are exaggerating. And that's only the REPORTED cases, Interpol and others put the murder rate past 80/100 000.

Black Coffee said...

RT - you went to Kennedy Street when? It's gotten better over the years, but in 1999 it was real bad. I take it you worked in Philly. Has it occurred to you that the things you saw and experienced there, being called a honkie, etc. has to do with conditions people live in?
I don't have an issue with what you said other than I have worked many jobs as I have said before, so I do know about hard work. My family is not over privileged, just regular middle class.
Dobes - I did walk the streets of Soweto, mostly in daytime. One time was at night, but I did have my black friend escort me.
RT is right about one thing - why aren't you law-abiding guys - black and white rising up in arms literally if things are that bad in SA.

Doberman said...

@ BC, how can we take up arms? We've had our guns removed from us! We have a government that steadfastly refuses to fight crime, corruption, and sort out the police. What will you have law-abiding people do? Break the law?? If whites complain, they are called traitors and racists. If farmers try to defend themselves they are thrown in jail and charged with murder. Same goes for home owners. You are NOT allowed to shoot armed intruders in South Africa in your house. Your life has to literally be within seconds of being snuffed out before you may defend yourself if you are lucky to have a gun. In any event, you will still be charged with murder. Then you have years of legal expenses and hassles to get through.

No, we leave the country and try and help those left behind. The country suffers and worsens. You'll see when you get there.

Ranger Tom said...

@BC. Yes, it was Philly. And I was on Kennedy St several times throughout the 90's working along side the DC Metro Police on an exchange program... The District where I worked in Philly was a thousand times worse. In a six square mile area, we averaged 10 homicides PER eight hour shift by 1995. In 1999 I was already in Arizona. But I would have thought that great guy they kept on re-electing, Marion Barry would have cleaned that place up?

Oh, he couldn't do that, because he'd have nowhere to get his crack then...

Ranger Tom said...

@Doberman: And if people like BC here in the states get their way, we will have all of out guns confiscated too, and be unable to defend our homes, families and property.

Black Coffee said...

I did not know that you had guns removed from you, I thought that was a proposal. In any case, I am against gun control,I side with conservatives on this one. Even in places with a fully professional police, most of what cops do is after something has already happened, and 99% of time when you are attacked they won't be there. I know SAPS has a problem with crooked cops, there are some good ones too I think. But I think the latter are probably burdened by dockets of 50 unsolved rapes and murders, have to race from call to call and pick up slack for cops who are only collecting a check. You bet the government should sort that out. I have heard about the part that you are not allowed to hurt intruders, my black friends told me the same thing. I think this law is absolutely absurd.

Doberman said...

That's right RT, because as the leftist dogma goes, guns kill people... so no guns, no crime...er, we still have criminals though.

Ranger Tom said...

@BC: You didn't know? Even the little I know about SA at this point I knew they took gun ownership away, and I haven't even been there.

Ranger Tom said...

@ Doberman: I'd find a way man... Find a way...

Doberman said...

@ BC, don't you read this blog? As of the end of June 2009, any person who has not handed in his firearm is a criminal. The various gun associations are appealing to the Con Court re: the Act's constitutionality. Leading the charge is the BLACK Gun Owners Assoc.

Of course once handed in the many thousands of guns are simply resold by the corrupt police to criminals.

Then to get a licence is a year or two's hassle with NO guarantee that you will get a licence.

It seems the liberals from Gun Free SA thought if we remove guns from the law-abiding that the criminals would do the same...

Doberman said...

@ RT, many have. You can purchase anything on the black market including guns and truth be told, in this instance, although I don't condone breaking laws but when your life and your family's lives are at stake, the choice is clear.

Ranger Tom said...

@ Doberman... Live by the rule I've lived by for years: "Better to be judged by twelve than to be carried by six"

If I'm going to go down, I'm going to take as many of the bastards with me as possible.

Doberman said...

RT, I fully agree. I carried a H & K on my person for 17 straight years every single day, to restaurants, to functions, to the movies, to dinners, always concealed of course and I practised. I could use it. Thankfully I never had to use it but I was prepared. In 2008, my turn to hand in my weapon arrived, it was done alphabetically, my name came up and I handed in a brilliant piece, an old faithful.

I got zero compensation but I didn't mind. I gave it in to a private gun shop. I haven't got a licence presently but rest assured when I am next in SA, I'm starting the application process.

Ranger Tom said...

@Dobs. One right they haven't taken away here yet... But they're trying.

They won't find mine, I can assure you that much.

Anonymous said...

Interesting debate. Has BC read IQ and the Wealth of Nations?
His defence of Haiti makes no sense at all.
What about Africa's mess? What about the fact that S/Saharan africa never had the ability to write and still lived in the stone age when whites arrived?
No point debating IQ the facts speak for themselves. You dont need to do research just look at the facts.

Viking said...

The example of Haiti is an interesting one, Anon. It's a clear cut case of an independent black state outside of Africa - where they got their wish and murdered all the whites. The US Marines may have occupied from time to time, but I have no doubt the net effect was preventing the locals from slaughtering each other. The sister of a friend of mine went there on some church mission a few years ago and I saw the photos, it is WORSE than Africa, if that's possible.
It is also an ideal case study because right next door, literally, is the Dominican Republic which is populated by people of largely mixed race, and their GPD per capita is something like 8 times that of Haiti. Bear in mind, Dominicans are not 'white' per se - so this is not a supremacist argument. Jared Diamond (if my memory serves) tried to make an environmental argument for this difference, but it was weak.
By the way, witnessing crime does not make people racist. It can, but by and large what makes whites want to separate themselves is just the vast chasm in thought that exists between the races. I have found Africans generally pleasant, if childlike, people, but simply unfathomable.

FishEagle said...

Anon, "You don't need to do research just look at the facts." I was in West Africa and learned that until they were exposed to whites, one of the indigenous Mali tribes never had the words for 'right' or 'left' in their language. It just shows that such simple concepts never existed in their minds.

Dachshund said...

@BC: In answer to your question about whether China could effectively take over South Africa? Yes, I think there's quite a probability of that. They're cash rich and SA is poor. Ideologically SA is right up China's street. The ANC would rather take a blinkered attitude towards China's own human rights record than ever allow whites to participate in SA's economy again.

See http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71619?oid=136882&sn=Detail

Mzu said...

Judging by the tone of the commentaries, there is quite an obsession with Xolela Mangcu. The fellow is a bufoon, no doubt; but, the dogmatic praise of Bullard is more astounding. As a young black professional I find the crass intellectual backwardness of a section of the white population, displayed in this side, pretty shocking. I must say though I find some of the commentaries here a bit amusing, and educative!

Vanilla Ice said...

@Mzu. The relevance of your being a black professional is what exactly? I hazard a guess; it is to lend credence to your opinion. How sad. However, as is typical of your ilk, you try to string together an articulate piece of verbiage; and then hope that it passes as intellect. Pray tell, what exactly is intellectually backward? The fact that black IQs are measurably lower than all other race groups; or are you just another typical "drive by shooting", who doesn't have the intellectual courage to formulate an argument and defend it. Come on, show us what your intellect is made of.

Doberman said...

Mzu, another black "intellekshual". First off my black friend, using a thesaurus is only useful if you understand the meaning of the words used in context. Secondly, why the need to define yourself as a "black professional", wtf does that mean? A black gardener/landscaper could be classed as a black professional.

You people always feel it necessary to distance yourselves from the rabble which no doubt in your mind is those blacks that are not "professionals". I don't comment on sites and include my being a "white professional" to indicate that what I have to say is of more import. An education does not equate to intelligence, as you've so ably demonstrated.

Black Coffee said...

Mzu - I have met Xolela Mangcu when I was in South Africa. He is no buffoon, I suggest read his columns.
Viking - what do you find so unfathomable about Africans and their culture? I found it fascinating myself. The very thing that Exzanian decried in an earlier post with the pic of the KwaZulu muti shop in Johannesburg CBD is precisely what I liked about SA, especially Jozi. Looking back I think what I really enjoyed was precisely the mix of European, African and American (in terms of architecture and even some of music you'll hear minibus taxis blaring) cultures that one comes across in Johbg CBD. People all over world are more likely than they are different. The cultural differences make for an interesting world, how dull would it be if everyone was exactly the same? I'll give one example. You may hear a lot of decrying of African ancestor worship from Europeans, throwing bones to ancestors and what not. Now - if you have any American money in your wallet, pull out a dollar bill. What or whom - I should ask do you see? On the front of a one dollar bill you will always see face of George Washington. What is that but just another form of ancestor worship? Any other African so-called "superstitions" that you or others would like to bring up?

Doberman said...

Seriously BC, your statement "On the front of a one dollar bill you will always see face of George Washington. What is that but just another form of ancestor worship?" is a classic. I would suggest you get your money back from that thar Howard University where you've wasted 9 years getting that Puh H duh. People don't worship George Washington and they certainly don't make decisions based on how dollar bills fall on the ground.

Africans however carve each up, children included, while alive, so that they can influence something in their lives. You are comparing apples and whales.

BC, try and make sense. You're losing the plot. See how hollow your arguments become when you can't use the leftards's standard "waycists!" war cry? It doesn't work with us SAns, we're not influenced by that label. Now that we've removed that impediment which most Americans avoid, it becomes harder for leftists like you to explain things that just do not make sense.

A starting point: blacks have to be held to the same standards as whites, let's start with that. Stop justifying their asinine neolithic customs.

Black Coffee said...

Doberman - actually my comment on ancestor worship came out of a discussion I had at Howard University with another PhD student. This was several years before I made my trip to South Africa. We were discussing ancestor worship in West Africa. What he said about ancestor worship makes a lot of sense though. I discussed this practice of ancestor worship with a black South African student at Wits University. He made it sound like it is not much different from you, I or any other "Westerner" going to a cemetery and speaking to a loved one who is now dead in hopes that he/she will hear us. As far as carving people up, I know this happens, but I have heard from sangomas that this is an abberation. In 1990s we had a white guy in America carving people up. His name was Jeffrey Dahmer (ring any bells?) He did so without any ancestor worship or muti but result is same - dead, carved up bodies of innocent victims. Next point?
There is a reason I follow this blog besides finding out bad news from SA. I also notice that you often place interesting articles here from Politicsweb and other sources which I might overlook and that is a great service. But mixed in is almost an obsession with whiteness. Look at the posts on "white race" this and that, how whites are supposedly extinct in Britain, etc. Every time you post on American politics and society it has something to do with race. You never told us whether you have actually been to America, yet you have said several times that I do not understand SA because 6 months is not enough time there. I acknowledge that there are certainly many things about SA society I do not know nor understand, but I know what I saw and experienced during my time there. I also know what my expectations were before I went given all the bad news that was coming out in 2006, with or without the crime statistics.
On America - I want you and RT to consider this. Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Reverend Wright and President Obama would not use the so-called "race card" if there was not real racism to deal with and combat in America. I say like I told some of my own relatives, Sharpton, Jackson, Wright and even Farakhan are not the problem. The problem is white supremacy. Too many whites are still wedded to idea of white supremacy and worst part is they fail to acknowledge it, perhaps even to themselves. Then, when people like Reverend Wright hold a mirror to what America has been doing, they get mad. I can only shake my head in disbelief.

Doberman said...

Slow down BC, you're comparing apples and whales again, not the same. Dahmer was a one off, muti killing is commonplace. Don't look for the sole white killer and then say oh, look whites do it too. Whereas one white might carve up a victim, far more blacks do it as a normal course of events. Your next point?

As for my focusing on my whiteness, well that comes from observing how society is gearing to knocking whites like whackomole. We can't speak freely, we can't do anything, we are expected to pay for the sins of our forefathers and I say FUCK that with great big capitals. It's happening in South Africa, it's happening everywhere, and this white ain't gonna take it no more.

Here's one white that won't be cowered, who will speak of his pride in the white race's achievements, who is really truly proud of being a white man. That's not racism any more than it was for Malc X and MLK or Steve Biko to go on and on about their black pride.

It is not racist to recognise that there are racial differences and it is certainly not racist to feel proud in one's race. You being a yank have to overcome that mental barrier because it's well known that yanks like most westerners are afraid of the label "racist" but it doesn't sit with South Africans and Rhodesians because we've been in the racial mix all our lives and we have become the victims of black racial injustice. So bark up another tree, this doggie won't bite. I repeat, I support white consciousness deliberately because it's time for whites to take back their rightful heritage so that our children are not made to endure the same prejudice when they grow up. There's no greater motivation.

Ranger Tom said...

Doberman: I really hope you don't put me into the same catagory as BC as a Yank. I, unlike him, really try to be open minded, even though he doesn't think I am. I see both sides and with I hope is my age & with age comes wisdom, I see him as another liberal who hasn't a clue how the real world is. I, as a white man, was raised to treat every man the same regardless of color, a pretty progressive idea to a strict Irish~Catholic family that I was raised in.

If BC's retoric is true, that blacks are only a product of their enviroment, can't the same be true of me?

I mean, I joind the police department at the ripe age of 22. I had altruistic dreams of helping people, regardless of their color.

But the sad, bitter lesson I was delt was that they din't want my help. they resented me for being there, and hated me just for being what I was.

A white male.

BC has no concept of that.

Several years ago, when I was still a cop, I got a call one night. A woman was going into pre-mature labor. I was the first one on the scene, I helped calm the woman down, and after a short while I helped deliver the baby. A healthy baby boy.

There was a lot of bleeding, and it turned out I was the same blood type as the woman. I rode with the woman and her baby to the hospital where she was going into shock from loss of blood.

I volunteered to donate blood to the woman, who without it she would have bled to death in the Emergency Room.

I wasn't looking for any recogition or anything. I was just doing my job the best way I felt I could.

Did I even get a thanks or anything from this woman and her husband?

No.

I was yelled at and called a honkie, how dare I give her my tainted "white" blood! She spat on me and her husband threatened me. How dare a honkie Gray meat cop touch her son and spoil her with my blood.

You boast of being in SA for six months.

Try putting up with THAT for TEN fucking years and not be affected.

I could give you instance after instance of the same treatment I'VE recieved, just trying to do my job.

I for one and sick and fucking tired of having my whiteness thrown in my face like I've done something personally to every single black mother fucker out there.

I'm personally PROUD I'm white, and I'm no longer afraid to say it. I never took anything from my government, never once asked for a handout. I've worked hard for everything I've ever gotten.

But that concept is lost of people like you who think it's every white person's resposibility to atone for every little imagined wrong the white race has done in the past.

I've TRIED to be the good guy.

It doesn't fucking work, because the black has no concept. I could go on for HOURS on the things I've seen in ten years on the police department, but again, with you I'd be wasting my breath. I went into every call with an open mind, but had, from the very begining had my whiteness thrown in my face.

Niggers (yes, I said it!) will always be niggers.

Doberman said...

@ RT, well said my friend. I can sense your frustration. I feel the same way. I've always tried to do the right thing and thought that was enough. Not any more, not since I lost my country in the great social experiment in South Africa.

Of course I don't think all Americans are like BC. You've seen me defending America which I admire and treasure as a force for good. I think Americans are the most altruistic people on the face of the planet, so much so that it's to your detriment. You need to pull back and look after yourselves, fuck the rest of the planet. America and Americans are what they are, you get what you see, love them or leave them. I go with the former.

As for your sentiments about being white, I wholeheartedly endorse. I am extremely proud of my race's achievements. I accept it is not flawless too. Being white and proud is very acceptable and I see my role on this planet to educate those around me and my children to stand up and take back their rightful heritage as members of the most successful race on the planet. If that sits uncomfortably with ethnomasochists like BC and other races, well tough! Say it brother, I am white and I am proud!

FishEagle said...

I am white and I'm proud.

Ranger Tom said...

@Doberman: I just get so frustrated some times when these pindicks who have absolutely no concept try to preach to me their liberal dogma on how the white man is at fault for everything.

Just one little 'glitch' in my DNA, and I wake up one morning and it's my fault for evert goddamn social ill on the planet?

How can I not, and how can you not, be bitter and angry?

Doberman said...

@ FE, say it louder sister, I AM WHITE AND I AM PROUD!! If we all say it often enough, perhaps BC will have a brain aneurysm ;)

Ranger Tom said...

BC will have a brain aneurysm?

I'M WHITE AND I'M PROUD!

I'M WHITE AND I'M PROUD!

I'M WHITE AND I'M PROUD!

Doberman said...

@ RT, quite right. We need to stop playing their game. They think they own the court, the ball and racket and make the rules as they go along and we must just comply. Fuck that.

We must start biting back, loudly, in public, in so-called polite circles, we need to call them on their hypocrisy. We need to tell them THEY are the racists by harping on race issues all the time. They hate that.

FishEagle said...

I AM WHITE AND I'M PROUD!! I AM WHITE AND I'M PROUD!! I AM WHITE AND I'M PROUD!! I AM WHITE AND I'M PROUD!! I AM WHITE AND I'M PROUD!! I AM WHITE AND I'M PROUD!! Is it working yet? :)

Doberman said...

LOL! Hold thumbs...listen for popping sounds of heads bursting.

Ranger Tom said...

I LOVE this blog!

Viking said...

@BC
I echo Doberman's words, America is a truly great country, and it's respect for ideological forefathers like George Washington is to be applauded. American is also a fair country, with a constitution designed to stop interest groups from bullying the majority with their opinions.
White American voted something like 47/54% in the presidential elections, i.e. they voted along ideological or political lines. Black America, in contrast, voted something like 98/2% - along racial lines.
But forget that for a second, and look at the first statistic again. White America voted on the issues, in fact it seems likely that those who voted on racial lines voted FOR the nonwhite candidate.
The problem is that liberals in America do tend to see opposition to their Great Society as evil, rather than just as a difference of opinion, because opposition to "progress" must be "reactionary".

I spent as long in the USA as you did in South Africa, and found Americans a lot less unfathomable than Africans. An African will destroy his own street to make a point, then insist the government comes to build him a new one. Can you really understand that mentality?
Like I said, most Africans I've met are friendly, and nice people. Most. Maybe they are nice because they want something, I don't know. Their views on white people are just as mysterious.

Viking said...

PS Here is one of my attempts to understand the African mind.

http://thinkingmansguidetotheworld.blogspot.com/2009/07/insights-into-african-mind-57.html

Black Coffee said...

RT - believe it or nor I understand what you are trying to say, that you've had your bad experiences with blacks when you were just doing your job and trying to help. Last night I was working with a fellow security guard who is retired from Montgomery Ohio sheriffs department. As we discussed the Gates case he told me that there were many times that he went on calls around Dayton, Ohio area into black areas that when he showed up people would just yell "racist pig" at him. Never mind fact that it was their black neighbors who called police. I would say that history of white supremacy has created this backlash that you see and experience, and yes, some blacks end up lashing out at us when we try to help. I heard that in New Orleans in 2005 some were even shooting at National Guard when latter came to help Katrina victims. Doberman as far as teaching whites, especially kids to be proud, I would say this: unlike the case was with blacks, which Biko and Malcolm X spoke against, there are few who hate or despise whites merely because of their skin color. There are many who despise or even hate whites because of what our forefathers and foremothers did, which has become a form of collective memory for blacks both in US and in South Africa.