Spending a morning at Cape Town Magistrates Court is no laughing matter. The number of dangerous-looking criminals, many of them foreigners, wandering around is enough to make anyone nervous at the best of times.
One very young defendant, whom I suspect was Congolese and had to have an interpreter, was set free because the state had failed to find a fingerprint expert to connect him to his own rap sheet. This violent thief was given a suspended sentence and is now back on the street.
The whole experience was sobering.
The reason for my visit was the Patricia de Lille Crimen Injuria case, in which Mrs. de Lille, leader of the Independent Democrats and Member of Parliament brought a charge against a woman who “insulted” her via SMS.
The content of the five offending SMS’s included the word “Kaffir” amongst others, and it was mildly amusing to watch Mrs. de Lille on the stand describe herself as “black” (for those who don’t know, she is Coloured). Despite the lack of ANY explicit or implicit threat to her person, Mrs. de Lille maintains her human rights were violated.
It is an interesting case, and without wishing to take sides, it must be said that South Africa’s Crimen Injuria law is pretty unique among democracies. In very few places is “insulting” someone privately i.e. where slander or libel legislation does not apply, a crime.
This is a criminal, not a civil case, and the bill is footed by the taxpayer. The burden of proof is upon the plaintiff, although the law is so subjective, the plaintiff merely has to take the stand and claim to have been hurt.
The case is ongoing, and I for one am curious as to how it turns out.
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53 Opinion(s):
Interesting! She is one of those dumb fucks like ... lets see:
1. Alan Poesak
2. Alan Hendricks
3. Chris Nissen
An embarrassment all round! Reminds me of the links between the Afrikaaners and the Coloureds - no credible leadership and those who are suppose to lead are just lining their pockets with government benefits.
@Anon
I didn't know anything about her before today, but she didn't come across as a credible politician ..
Now this is exciting stuff. i look forward to the next episode.
VI, I agree. Definately looking forward to hearing more about it.
@ Anonymous. "Reminds me of the links between the Afrikaaners and the Coloureds..." Well, then it should remind you of pretty much the rest of the world's politicians as well. Very weak.
@Viking: "I didn't know anything about her before today, but she didn't come across as a credible politician .." LOL!
Patricia de Lille is a brave and principled person.
@VI: Me too. ;)
@Dachshund
I have no doubt.
But she didn't come across that way today. Or rather, I imagined her to be more impressive.
@Viking: People always seem bigger on the small screen than they do in life.
@ Dachshund. I have my doubts. Why is Patricia de Lille wasting her time on such a menial court case? It's easy to look good when you fight against a system (NP, ANC, whatever) but it's not so easy to actually be leading. Has she done anything that showed true leadership, apart from pointing out the faults in others?
Dachshund, Fisheagle:
The case has nothing to do with her otherwise good work, particularly with abused women and children, and with AIDS. In this instance, she was bringing a frivolous lawsuit and feigning personal offence for who knows what reason. Like I said, I had no opinion of her until today.
By 'impressive' I meant as a public speaker.
For those wondering, the defendant is known to us as Andrea Murrhteyn.
Viking, I have been burned many times by blacks, coloureds and even Indians (from SA). I have seen it happen many times how other races turned against my race, when they seemed reasonable or principled on the surface. I have yet to meet one person from these races, in person, that has not had a chip on their shoulder about me being a white person. I've known coloureds that seemed like the nicest people on earth. When we attended a 'diversity workshop' together I couldn't believe the turn around in their attitudes. They seemed to compete in insulting the whites. I'm not one of those people that will become despererate because of it. That's a pretty damn sad sight, seeing respectable accomplished white people grovelling for acknowlegement from a bunch of arrogant, non deserving fucks. If Patricia de Lille is going to get herself worked up in a tiff over a minor race incident, then she doesn't have what it takes to be a politician in South Africa.
I didn't know she was involved with the projects you mentioned. I applaud her for those efforts and wish her luck with them.
@Viking: Ah yes loony Lara Johnstone. This case goes back to July 2007. It wasn't only crimen injuria, it was alleged intimidation as well. You can go to jail for that for a couple of years. If de Lille has been hanging in with this case for 2 years you can be sure it's not frivolous.
So what if Lara Johnstone, posing under an alias of Andrea Murrhteyn, bamboozled ILuvSA into contributing for them? She went down like a lead balloon after a very short time. She was very hectic, rather crazy. De Lille found her unacceptably hectic and crazy. If a crazy like Lara threatened to kill me, I wouldn't take it lightly either. She's done some weird stuff in her life. De Lille is a member of parliament and is entitled to protection from physical harm, or threats of physical harm. You may say that's not fair, why shouldn't citizens have the same rights, but politicians are more likely to attract stalkers by the very nature of their work.
Did she receive death threats?
Nice one Viking. Keep us informed - if you can stand going to that courthouse. Any ideas how long the trial will be?
@FE, Dachshund,
No, no death threats nor any kind of threats, and she had no idea who Lara Johnstone was. She testified she had never heard of her until she got the SMSs. I haven't taken a side in this one, but it is fascinating!
@Doberman
just a couple of days I think. There no witnesses or anything to present. I was thinking of going back this afternoon, but I'm not sure I can afford to take time off!
@Viking, if I had to choose sides in the court case of course I'd back Patricia de Lille. It seems like a rather cowardly act for someone to send a few threatening sms's to a political leader. What's the point??? Coming back to South African politics, the fact that P de L is making such a big fuss about the whole incident just shows how small minded she is, despite being the leader of her own political party. She has stooped to the level of the person sending the messages.
Actually civilians can also lay criminal charges against cellphone stalkers, or any other kind of stalker or arsehole who resorts to harassment and threats, but I've never heard of anyone getting any joy out of it. We need a solid precedent in this kind of matter. De Lille is nothing if not tenacious. She was the one who called for an investigation into the Arms Deal in the first place.
When the NPA dropped charges against Zuma and she was asked if she was angry, she replied:
"Am I angry? Of course I am angry. I am angry because the majority of our people are not seeing the warning signs that are coming from the ANC, a liberation party that has no respect for the Constitution and the rule of law and is prepared to erode both just so that one man can become the leader of our country.
"By letting these ANC crooks off the hook we are sending entirely the wrong message to our people. Government is saying that there is a way out for those who break the law."
Dach, I'll giver her that. She is definately tenacious. Now all she needs is a brain.
@FE: What would you have said if the stalker was male instead of female?
Dach, it would have made no difference. I don't understand why that is important. Could you explain?
@FE: Because it's usually, but not always, women who send insulting sms'es to other women. In which case, it's deemed to be not a serious matter, just two silly women having a "tiff".
This isn't a tiff between two women who have fallen out with each other. It's an outside threat. You don't know what this female stalker is capable of, or who she is associated with.
If I may say my two words here. I think one should always take threats of whatever nature seriously. Texting / cyber bullying is as real to the victim as physical in-your-face bullying and in that respect I think De Lille's actions are right. She obviously felt threatened and she has reacted to the threat. It must have gone beyond simply banter for De Lille to take it this far.
@Dobes: Thanks. Common sense prevails.
Viking posted that "Despite the lack of ANY explicit or implicit threat to her person, Mrs. de Lille maintains her human rights were violated."
I had my own encounter with the 'Lara Johnstone' character on this blog, as you know, and I think she is capable of doing serious harm to a person. So Viking's statement goes against my own gut feel about the potential danger that LJ is capable of. However, he was the one that visited the court hearing and he came to a different conclusion. Given that he heard the details of the case and he was there in person, I trusted his opinion and made my conclusions accordingly.
The harmlessness of harmfulness of the one sending the SMSs is irrelevant, as Dachshund and Doberman say, because you don't know who it is so have to take it seriously. The case is NOT about harrassment, it is about being insulted and that is uniquely a crime in South Africa.
That's why I haven't taken sides. one the one hand you just shouldn't be sending messages to someone calling them racial names no matter who they are, but on the other hand why is it a crime?
This is not a libel/slander case.
That would be a CIVIL affair. This is a CRIMINAL case.
So (and yes it is this complicated) if I call someone a thief within earshot of a group of people they can sue me for slander and would probably win if they were innocent, but if I call that person a ka**ir to their face IN PRIVATE then it is a crime and I can go to jail !
I don't see whom this law is trying to protect.
@FishEagle
maybe I haven't laid out the details clearly enough. I would rather take the side of the victim here, by instinct.
But I am stumped as to why someone spends public money to bring a criminal case over being insulted by SMS.
If it had happened to me maybe I would feel differently, and I can't know what it would be like - i've been racially insulted before and laughed it off, but maybe not everyone feels like that about it.
I do suspect that PdL has received many overt threats in her life and this is not one of them. I cannot see her motivation - it is not publicity, as there was hardly anyone in court.
I agree, this "crime" is unique to South Africa. Google "crimen injuria" and it will turn up as being a South African law only.
People will always insult each other and people have a recourse via libel /slander suits - as a civil matter - but to criminalise a word, any word is insane. Something said in the heat of a moment can turn into a jail sentence.
Viking, so basically you are saying this is a court case that was as a result of an insult from LJ. Presumably there must be another case for the threatening aspect of the sms's? I would bloody well hope so, otherwise I would be even more disgusted with PdeL than before.
I get it that the real issue is not about PdeL but about South Africa's leglislation.
@FishEagle
explain!
No, there was no threat. Harrassment, maybe. There were five SMSs, some sent repeatedly over a full day. There was some reference to AIDS, but not suggesting that PdL has it, and I think the word bitch was used as well.
It's about insult. If someone called me a ka**ir I would obviously laugh it off, because I'm not black and neither is Mrs.de Lille. but she was discriminated against in the past so maybe you can't compare.
Thanks Viking. Your comment, "I didn't know anything about her before today, but she didn't come across as a credible politician .." A level headed person would not abuse poor legislation. That is poor morality. A 'credible' politician should be able to align their political, moral and legal objectives. In this case PdeL didn't make the best of the situation.
Dach, I can't warn people enough about finding idols, or "heroes" as I like to call them, ESPECIALLY amongst people of another race.
You made the comment, "....it was alleged intimidation as well..........If de Lille has been hanging in with this case for 2 years you can be sure it's not frivolous," which turned out to be untrue. Maybe someone gave you the wrong information Maybe Viking's got the wrong info. But from experience I've seen how people tend to create persona's around their idols that are not necesserily true to life.
People should ALWAYS be conservative with their judgement, even with whites. My sad fate is having to witness the eagerness with which my white colleagues embrace anyone of another race, regardless of their substance, in a desperation to find a "black idol". They just simply never learn! I'm not saying these amazing blacks don't exist. I'm just good at accepting people for who they really are.
(Excuse my spelling today. New laptop and the spell check is giving me problems. Lol)
@FE: I don't idolise anyone, but I do admire Patricia de Lille for her investigative work into the arms deal. Perhaps you haven't looked into de Lille's background carefully enough, and are just writing her off because she is coloured.
If you would like to know how long Lara Johnstone has been bugging Patricia de Lille, check out this link:
http://mybroadband.co.za/news/Cellular/698.html
The young Congolese individual has probably killed more than four whites but you don't see him going away for 165 years... no, that's reserved for Boers who dare defend their culture!
here's an update:
http://jv.news24.com/Beeld/Suid-Afrika/0,,3-975_2537051,00.html
perhaps someone will be kind enough to tell me what it says lol
She was called a dumb kaffir bitch and a stupid kaffir moron.
Do you think it's acceptable for anyone to accept that kind of sms sent to them personally?
There's probably more to come.
Johnstone het gister in die Kaapse landdroshof beweer haar boodskappe aan De Lille was geënkodeer en sy was van mening dat De Lille dit sou kon ontsyfer omdat “sy ’n (ere)korporaal in die weermag is”.
Johnstone het getuig dat die woord “teef” eintlik met die grootste eerbied verwys het na De Lille se status as ’n sterk vrou.
K****r is volgens haar nie rassisties nie en sy noem haarself ’n “wit k****r teef”.
Johnstone het getuig dat sy met ’n swart Moslem getroud is en dat dié woord “ongelowige” in Arabies beteken.
De Lille het vir die staat getuig dat niemand die reg het om mense te beledig of ’n rassis te wees nie.
“Dit is haatspraak. Dit is beledigend.”
In nog ’n SMS verwys Johnstone na vigs as die “beste uitvinding sedert Manhattan, verkragting en marteling”.
“Manhattan” verwys glo na ’n geheime militêre projek tydens die Tweede Wêreldoorlog.
____________________________
Johnstone said her messages to de Lille were encoded and that De Lille could have deciphered them as she was an honorary corporal in the air force.
Johnstone said calling de Lille a kaffir bitch was a compliment because she considers she's a white kaffir bitch herself. Johnstone said she (Johnstone) is married to a black Muslim and that the word kaffir means unbeliever in Arabic.
Johnstone referred in an sms to Aids as the best thing since Manhattan, rape and torture. Manhattan supposedly refers to a secret military project during World War 2.
______________________
Lock this lunatic Johnstone bitch up and throw away the key.
Dach, no I'm writing her off after I heard about the incident in court yesterday. Before the incident I just took her for another coloured person, who lacked leadership qualities but had some good qualities too. The link you provided was dated to 2007. It sounds like it is the same court case that has been dragging along.
"Do you think it's acceptable for anyone to accept that kind of sms sent to them personally?" Yes, I do, because the sms's were not threats, only insults. If it bothered her that much she could have changed her phone number (at a cost of about R150) and claimed the expenses from the job. It's wrong that the tax payer payed thousands of rands in legal expenses to soothe her hurt feelings. Good politicians are aware that this type of thing comes with the territory of being a politician.
Dach, you can't lock LJ away on the merits of this case. How long do you think it is going to take me to find similar insults on this site made by the contributors? There is one that immediately comes to mind! Something about "jou ma....." (translated: your mother.......)Sorry VI, you're going to jail now!! Lol.
@FE: What are you insinuating, flaps? Would that be a threat? If so, flap off and troll somewhere else.
@Dachshund
thanks for the translation - the Beeld article sums up LJ's defence 100% accurately.
Although, it was imbecile, not moron!
"Do you think it's acceptable for anyone to accept that kind of sms sent to them personally?"
No. There are a number of things I would do to a person who spoke like that to me, but go to court is not one of them. PdL is a public figure, so can't really fight fire with fire in this instance, so is limited in her response.
I really am not sure about this case. I completely agree that the actions of LJ were unacceptable, but she didn't make any threats and as such this should not be a criminal matter.
Also, she did not say that AIDS was the best thing since the Manhattan Projects (the Atom bomb project) - she suggested that was PdL's opinion.
I think the judge will give her a small fine and tell her to apologise (she shows no remorse, by the way). She will refuse. And he may find her in contempt as a result.
@ Dach, what kind of response is that in a perfectly normal debate? Evidently you haven't heard of the concept of 'agreeing to disagree.' I happen to really like this site, despite your increasing poor comments. If you can't handle the heat, YOU get out of the kitchen. That's my last comment regarding this issue. I'm not wasting my time trying to have a meaningful discussion with you and nobody is interested in a tantrum.
Without minimising the arguments, as I see it is off to the races, let me shed some light on Crimen Injuria. Crimen Injuria has two components, your honour and your dignity. If you feel these were impaired, and such impairment was unlawful and intentional, then you have committed a crime. If there was a physical threat, or an implied threat, then it was assault. Assault does not actually have to take place, you just have to believe that it was imminent.
So, in this case, if the only charge is Crimen Injuria, then you are only dealing with the abuse.
Yes, Crimen Injuria is uniquely South African, with other nations relying on slander legislation, which usually falls under civil law. Slander has three additional components, it must be published, it must be untrue and it mustn't be in the public interest.
Now, in this particular case, it seems the debate rages around whether de Lille should have laid charges or not. Well, it is her right and her choice, and I guess if I had been harassed for days on end, and then had been called a "Fucking Marauding White Cunt", I may have felt sufficiently offended to lay a charge.
My experience is that Crimen Injuria cases rarely go anywhere, but in this case there is an sms trail, and with justice being seen to be done, it may deter others from behaving in a similar fashion.
Finally, I will point out that Crimen Injuria has been around for decades and has been a valid charge for the use of the term kaffir. Our courts have always prosecuted, where there was sufficient evidence.
As regards statements made on our blog, well to criminally charge somebody you need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that your honour and dignity has been impaired. This would be highly unlikely when most of us use a pseudonym and only exist digitally, moreover jurisdiction is an important consideration, and in this regard many of us enjoy the benefits of freedom of speech. Also, you would have to enjoy the benefits of honour and dignity. Many of our critics are bottom feeders.
Lara Johnstone may be eccentric and unconventional (some may say nuts) but she's got guts and has better principles than PDL as far as I'm concerned. You have to read between the lines to understand what she's on about. Her case makes a perfectly valid example of how screwed up South Africans' thinking and priorities are - someone is being prosecuted at the publics' expense for SOMETHING SHE SAID IN PRIVATE, while dangerous, hardened criminals walk free because the state is not prepared to put the same effort in to prosecuting them.
And anyone who says that Lara Johnstone is dangerous is talking shite.
@VI
thanks for you input!
here's an update. It seems the English press aren't interested so maybe some kind person will give me the gist of it ..??
http://www.dieburger.com/Stories/News/19.0.1690329104.aspx
ok the link doesnt work as it is. should have .aspx on the end. It cuts off on posting for some reason.
Translation of link:
Says she did it because she wanted to prompt de Lille to take action. Johnstone interpreted the government's lack of action regarding Aids in SA as a similar problem to apartheid (??? crazy woman). Says while struggle activitsts planted boms, she planted sms's. She acknowledges that De Lille may have been offended but only because she was small minded.
Case postponed to 12 Aug.
Lara Johnstone thrives on getting attention. I have contributed to her well being by taking part in this discussion about her, even though I tried to avoid it. I don't believe for one second she is seriously concerned about the Aids issue or any other issue (like extra terrestrials in the US and so forth). She has been the centre of a couple of political controversies and her modus opperandi was to prompt people into action by using shock tactics. She continues to use the same tactic, however, she never gets any results! Either she is really stupid, which is unlikely, or she enjoys the attention.
@ FE, indeed, who knows what her motives are. Remember this post 6 New Personality Disorders Caused by the Internet ? She fits one or two of the profiles mentioned. Still, I hope it turns out okay for her.
@Dobes, so true. I also sincerely hope it turns out ok for her. I just don't want to contribute to her well being as the persona she has created for herself in public, which is someone that is the centre of controversy. I want her to be herself.
@Doberman: I think she fits the profile of paranoid schizophrenic.
@Viking: I looked at Die Burger, Lara Johnstone apparently indundated de Lille with documents about the origin of HIV/Aids and when she didn't get a response she decided to harass her by sms.
Ugly diesel dyke Johnstone is. Devoid of any feminine charm. Must lead a miserable life being a rejected old lesbian. So she hit on de Lille, she obviously had a crush on her. When she was rejected she turned nasty.
I too had to deal with the hysteria of a rejected lesbian who wouldn't take no for an answer. She broke all my crystal glassware in a fit of rage. Straight women can't be friends with lesbians, no way. Luckily she paired up with another lesbian and left me alone.
@Dachs
Oh come now. Beauty is within. It's apparently only shallow schmucks like me that enjoy women nipped, tucked, tight and feminine.
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