Sunday, May 31, 2009

U.S. Abortion Provider Shot And Killed At Church

There aren't that many things that really piss me off, but religion and it's irrational behaviour is one of them. The amount of bloodshed in the name of one religion or other, is without equal. Moreover, the number of people that believe that "God" told them personally to do something, is astonishing. Anybody else hearing voices would be certifiably insane, but not if it is in the name of religion. Any bets the perpetrator of this dastardly deed will claim "God" spoke to him personally, and this was his life's purpose?

Related:

At Free Republic, they’re celebrating the murder of Dr. George Tiller. From the following threads:
Report: George Tiller Shot To Death [Child Murderer Killed At Wichita Church]

George Tiller (Child Murderer) shot to death at Wichita church

KWCH website: Police: Tiller Died of Single Gunshot Wound
KWCH in Kansas reports that the suspected murderer of abortion doctor George Tiller has been arrested near the town of Gardner.

Fox News affiliate website

A disgusting statement from Operation Rescue’s Randall Terry: George Tiller was a Mass-Murderer, says Randall Terry — We Grieve That he Did Not Have Time to Properly Prepare his Soul to Face God.

- - -

WICHITA, Kansas.

A controversial provider of late-term abortions was shot to death Sunday as he walked into services at his Kansas church, local media reports.

A lightning rod in the bitter culture war over abortion, George Tiller has been picketed, bombed and shot in the arms.

He was shot to death just after 10 a.m. local time as he walked into Reformation Lutheran Church in Wichita, Kan., the Wichita Eagle reported.

Police contacted by AFP could not immediately confirm the report but said details of an incident at the church would be released later in the day.

Tiller, 67, one of the few doctors who still performs late-term abortions in the U.S., has been demonized by abortion opponents who regularly protest outside his clinic, located just off a busy highway that runs through Wichita.

In 1986, someone placed a bomb on the roof of the clinic, seriously damaging the building.

In 1993, Tiller was shot in both arms outside the clinic. Tiller recovered, and his assailant received an 11-year prison term.

Some 2,000 protesters were also arrested outside the clinic during summer-long demonstrations in 1991.

He was acquitted in March on charges that he performed 19 illegal abortions in 2003.

19 Opinion(s):

Anonymous said...

O please: let's leave religion out of this. The so called "doctor" was a mass murderer! While I do not condone the fact that he was killed let's not lose perspective here & forget that he was engaged in the killing of people! He conducted very late term "abortions" too which is what made him so controversial. No one would criticize the murder of a Nazi concentration camp guard so why the hell would anyone criticize the killing [ while still morally wrong ] of THIS Nazi killer.

Vanilla Ice said...

@Anon. No, we cannot leave religion out of it because this type of behaviour is in the name of religion.

It is a strange thing religion. Those that are deeply religious seem to think that they somehow have a monopoly on being moralistic, good, decent, loving and peaceful. I am sure Randall Terry, a religious fanatic, (head of a group called Operation Rescue whose sole purpose is to intimidate abortion providers) felt this way when he said “When I, or people like me, are running the country (USA), you’d better flee, because we will find you, we will try you, and we’ll execute you”.

Indeed.

Need I also remind you of the blood shed in the name of religion, suicide bombers, 9/11, 7/7, the Crusades, witch-hunts, the Gunpowder Plot, the Israeli/Palestinian debacle, the Serb/Croat/Muslim massacres, the persecution of the Jews, Northern Ireland, the Taliban … the list goes on and on.

With this as a religious backdrop I find it quite hypocritical that you make the pious claim "engaged in the killing of people", as if it is universally accepted that people are being killed. Let's place it in context, and by proper context I mean where are the statistics showing infant abuse, malnutrition, suicides, murders, increased poverty, learning disorders, disease, lack of opportunities etc.

I think you need to look more broadly at an issue before you unthinkingly pen diatribe in such a narrowly defined fashion. In a free thinking world there is a fundamental respect for freedom of choice, and this is where you get your knickers in a knot and want to proclaim that life itself is more important. Indeed, and at the risk of becoming a semantic game, what life are we talking about? The life of an embryo over that of a teenage poverty stricken mother, who will never have the opportunity of a decent future? Where do we draw the line? What about the life of that cow for your braai (barbeque) you had on Saturday night, especially the one slaughtered whilst fully conscious for religious ceremonial reasons, which undoubtedly suffers more than an embryo? What about test tube babies, which society has accepted? Where do you stand on these? At least a dozen zygotes may be harvested, of which two maybe three are implanted and which has brought joy to countless childless couples in the last 25 years or so. Would you deny them the chance at having children of their own, and impose adoption on these hapless couples? What does it mean to be a human embryo anyway? A broader definition should be whether an embryo is capable of suffering, and this suffering has nothing to do with being human. In this regard you need to weigh this suffering up against very real life-long suffering about to be experienced by the pregnant mother, her family and society at large. Does an embryo’s right to life usurp all others? What about the lives of Dr. John Britton, James Barrett and Dr. George Tiller, men who were murdered by religious fanatics for working in an abortion clinic? These were people capable of love, hope, fear, emotion and who were also husbands, fathers and sons. What about the suffering inflicted on their families in the name of religion. Surely the mother has a right to choose. You think not, well fortunately you are not my moral beacon and I am sure not for countless others too.

You clearly have no grasp of the facts when you make such outrageous Nazi remarks. Approximately 23 percent of illegitimate children are born to poor mothers, compared to 9 percent to affluent mothers.

Anyway, I have already gone on too long as it doesn't quite fit our theme.

Doberman said...

Without it being a religious issue, I think it is safe to say that in a perfect world, every child born would be perfectly healthy and 100% wanted. But look around you, there are by UN estimates 100 MILLION street children suffering the most depraved, inhumane lives. But hey, at least you pro-lifers get to feel good about yourselves because you stopped a foetus being born - to that inhumane life.

Think about the born as much as the unborn. I don't see you bible punchers taking in any street children. That's the hypocrisy of your beliefs. Your religion teaches you to care for your fellow man..but hey, not on my account eh? How about sponsoring some of those 100 MILLION kids? No? But you'll let them be born so instead of a quick death as a foetus however unpleasant it may be, let's get them born so they can roam the streets to be abused and die slow horrible deaths.

I'll tell you when I turn pro-life. When every single child born on this earth is wanted and is living safely. Until then it is madness to let children be born to people that do not want them. So stop with the Nazi comparisons dickhead. You are the hypocrite.

Viking said...

It seems that the doctor in question was as religious as the person who shot him. Were the abortions he performed legal or illegal? It would seem they were legal, in spite of the controversy surrounding him.

FishEagle said...

I had an argument with you about religion under the post, “Is religion bullshit?” VI and Dobes, on this issue I agree with you wholeheartedly. Organized religion should only concern itself with compassion for individual people, which specifically seek out their help, and never prescribe how people should live their lives. The problem is most people in churches don’t have enough faith to simply be satisfied with that and they want recognition in public for their good deeds. It makes them feel good but at what or whose expense? If a religious group crosses the line it will inevitably get entangled in hypocrisy, politics, corruption, sex, murder, war, etc. Don’t we all know the list of failures!

A much loved pastor in a neighboring town died from a terminal illness after being aware of his illness for quite some time. He did not hide the illness from his congregation and they were dumbfounded when the sad day came that he passed away because they spent all their energy praying for his miraculous recovery. It’s just another story that epitomizes the failures of organized religion. They did not pray for the pastor, or the congregation, to have courage to face his death and therefore they were left baffled and, no doubt, having doubts about their faith.

Instead of committing a crime, murder (!), why did the religious fanatic in this story not pray for compassion for the mother, unborn child or the doctor? The murderer did not have faith in his God.

Viking said...

well said, FishEagle.

Joe King said...

Well at least you all have one thing in common, none of you were ever aborted. :-)

coppolanow said...

@Vanilla Ice. I am doing work experience at the BBC WORLD SERVICE. We are preparing an on air debate on the Dr Tiller issue TONIGHT and based on your comments I would like to talk to you about it ASAP. Please email me your international phone number at josieleblond@hotmail.com or alternatively call the office: +44 20 7557 0635 and ask for Josie. Thanks.

Vanilla Ice said...

@Coppolanow. Thanks for the offer, I am sure it would have been fun but Dobes actually is the one with the face for radio, poor sod. No seriously, for obvious reasons I would like to keep my identity concealed.

Anonymous said...

Well well well. So you are DEFENDING the outrageous behavior of Tiller & other extremist "abortionists". Let's try to remember one very important thing here: Tiller conducted LATE TERM ABORTIONS! So don't even try to peddle this "as if it is universally accepted that people are being killed" bullshit. The babies he killed were almost FULL term for God's sake! Because if people are not being killed then what the hell is being killed?! An hallucination?! A frog?! I have always noted that if "abortion" is not about killing people then you are not doing right. The whole point of "abortion" is too KILL people period.

Somehow I doubt it very much if you would have liked to have been "aborted" yourself yet you defend this cruel punishment on others! Now that is what I would call true hypocrisy! Quite frankly I could not give a rat's ass what that Randall Terry character does or says because this issue is not about provocateurs like him [ who are obviously trotted out to discredit the principled anti-abortion position ] but about the 1 million children that are killed each year in the USA due to this vile act.

Furthermore: I notice that you make all the vile Leftist bullshit arguments about "poverty stricken mothers who will have no opportunity for a decent future". This vile bullshit rhetoric is right out of NARAL / NOW & other NWO controlled population reduction organizations! Therefore you have just EXPOSED yourself! I have encountered that EXACT line / talking point virtually word for word for well over ten years now. A talking point based on pure bullshit too. Using the alleged notion that a person will not have the "same opportunities" if they can not have an "abortion" is vile far Left propaganda & furthermore using that scenario to justify abortion is the act of a ROGUE who values the illusory notion of the alleged "self betterment" that supposedly comes with "abortion" [ according to you anti-life Leftists ] while in reality defending the slaughter of innocent lives. What a joke! The ACTUAL poverty stricken mothers actually HAVE their children & don't MAKE DISGUSTING EXCUSES for wanting to "abort" / kill them! Your own statistics even PROVE that it is MIDDLE CLASS & UPPER CLASS people having the abortions & NOT the poorer folks.

Therefore rendering your entire specious argument moot! I notice also the old Leftist trick of attempting to turn it into a religious debate when religion is just the bogeyman the left trot out in order to marginalize the principled pro-life position.

Go an visit the web site of Libertarians for Life at: http://www.l4l.org to see how this is not a religious issue but about the fundamental right to life. Do not project the madness of the religious nuts onto this issue [ the media is already quite good at doing that ] because they are placed there as a convenient DISTRACTION to the real issue with is about the denial of the basic human right to life.

The whole "abortion" issue is all about getting people to accept their own genocide in the name of "self empowerment" when the only thing getting empowered is the agenda to reduce the population.

Vanilla Ice said...

@Anon 3:22. Ha ha ha, rofl. So shit for brains, are you a vegetarian then? Interesting that I am now deemed a leftist. More to the point, I see you have a penchant for extracting from my views only those lines that fit your vacuous argument. You fail to address the multitude of births to mothers and nations that cannot support same. If it is not a religion issue, but a right to life issue, then address why it is you think that a human foetus has more right to life than an adult human? Furthermore, if your argument is premised on the right to life, then ALL life is equal. Please address your views on this. Also, your stupid straw man suggestion that if I was aborted I wouldn't have liked it, is so funny I nearly pissed myself. I wouldn't have been any the wiser, so how does that make me a hypocrit? As for the statistics, doos, you make fallacious assumptions. The statistics indicate that poor mothers have approximately 2.5 times more illegitimate children than wealthier mothers (Source: Bell Curve). Period. Now go crawl back under that mid-west USA rock you crawled out of.

Viking said...

@Anon 3:22

I was actually taking you seriously until you mentioned the "NWO controlled population reduction organizations". Bravo to them, I say, and best of luck.
The commentator is pointing out the hypocrisy of a Christian taking out another Christian in an act of murder -
And whether or not someone was themselves nearly aborted or not would likely not change their opinion on the subject

Anonymous said...

There are so many ignorant presumptions & assumptions made here I hardly know where to begin. Of course you are a Leftist. Particularly on this issue as you are taking the Leftist position on it hook line & sinker. The vacuous argument is is being made by you because you use the straw man argument of people who can not support children as a CALLOUS excuse for "abortion" re: murder. I never once said a pre-born child has MORE rights than an adult. I pointed out that the pre-born child has the SAME right to life as an adult. The question is why do you think an adult has MORE rights than a pre-born child who should be PROTECTED by the law not VICTIMIZED by the law.

This is where you folks fall flat because you are openly advocating that the law be organized AGAINST the right to life of those who have simply not been given the chance to be born [ which is illusory as it is an artificial marker because many prematurely born babies go on to survive ] instead of advocating that the law be organized to protect & DEFEND the right to life of ALL persons.

What "legalized abortion on demand" has done is to created a TWO TIER LEGAL POLICY ON MURDER! The Leftists have argued that the pre-born have NO RIGHTS UNDER THE LAW & have IMPOSED their RELIGIOUS VIEWS onto the whole of the population by IMPOSING laws & rulings which conform to their RELIGIOUS view in a complete violation of the First Amendment because anytime a law or ruling based on PERSONAL VIEWS is passed onto the whole of the population that is a violation of the Bill of
Rights of the Constitution.

Now you make a bold & unsubstantiated claim that you would not have been the wiser if you were aborted. But you in point of fact have NO IDEA if you would have been aware or not because you never experienced an "abortion" & returned back to spirit form at which point you would have remembered the WHOLE incident.

This is also not a religious issue because the scientific research of Dr Micheal Roll [ www.cfpf.org.uk/articles/background/scientificproof/scientificproof1.html ] has proven the existence of spirits & the soul after death through repeated experiments. Therefore: there are quite a lot of souls who can remember the brutal / horrific procedure in which they were expelled from this realm through no fault of their own. Therefore your erroneous assertion is a PRESUMPTION based on a LIMITED perspective at best.

Now use your angry anti-life Left Wing hijacked brain for one second here. Why do you suppose there are more "illegitimate" [ which is a vicious term as though they are not legitimate children ] children born to poor mothers than more affluent ones? Because those who can afford "abortions" are more likely to have them. Response to Viking next.

Anonymous said...

Viking. Considering that this blog is supposed to be fighting the New World Order agenda [ of which South Africa is a notable part of ] it beggars belief that you would support any NWO controlled organization: particularly those that promote this genocidal population reduction agenda. One could certainly make the case that Tiller was not emulating Christian behavior with his late term "abortions" but so of course neither was the so called Christian who killed him.

Now to address your massive priori argument found within the following quote: "whether or not someone was themselves nearly aborted or not would likely not change their opinion on the subject".

This is where you are SO WRONG because there are NUMEROUS people [ www.abortiontv.com/Glitch/AbortionSurvivors.htm ] who have SURVIVED abortion procedures & many of them have come forward in support of the pro-life position. The physical scars from the procedure of still visible on many of them. There have even been pro-life commercials in the USA featuring these folks. Few ever talk about those poor children who SURVIVE the abortion procedure & are often afflicted with physical problems as a result of it! Furthermore the notion that they are not "wanted" is pure bullshit because there are always many more people who want to adopt children than there are neglected children. The street child phenomenon is the result of complex socio-economic issues & is not the result of not being wanted. Just of being neglected. This is a HUGE distinction.

Which brings up another point. Few of you pro-death zealots ever realize that many of those who have had the procedure have gone on to REGRET it! Because few people ever tell them just what they are in for both physically & emotionally often believing the spurious rhetoric that you folks spout with reckless ABANDON as though they were just having a simple operation. Many are physically injured & most are emotionally scarred for life! After the baby is removed [ after being CRUSHED to death! ] many have spoken of experiencing a TERRIBLE feeling of guilt which NEVER leaves them. But you want to portray this debilitating procedure as just a simple operation in the name of a facetious "right to kill" an unborn child. The procedure itself is risky no matter how trained a purported "doctor" is & many have gone on to die from it thereby debunking the patent nonsense that it can ever be safe. Furthermore: people who have had "abortions" are far more likely to develop ovarian cancer as the statistics have shown.

Now considering that the abrogation of another person's inherent right to life takes place during "abortion" procedures: there is no rational or ethical excuse for advocating it on such a large scale as is occurring all throughout the world.

Viking said...

Dear Anon

You make a good point. Many woman who have abortions go on to regret it. That is true, and in fact depression is a common result. Having an unwanted child also has negative consequences, however.
For your information, and I rarely give out personal information to strangers, I was almost aborted, my mother joyfully told me on several occasions. In fact, two of my potential siblings were. That does NOT alter my opinion on the subject one bit. And that is the truth.

On the other points you make, I had no idea I was helping fight the NWO as you call it. I am aware of a vaguely organised "liberal Agenga" which is a form of neoMarxism, but other than that I have no real crusade against anyone, but obviously cannot speak for my fellow contributors.

The following comment of yours is interesting though:
"because you never experienced an "abortion" & returned back to spirit form at which point you would have remembered the WHOLE incident."

In Christian theology, traditionally, ensoulment occurs at birth. The idea that we exist in "spirit form" prior to birth is not a feature of Western religion at all. Wonder where you got that from.

FishEagle said...

Viking, I’m so sorry to hear about your mother’s error in judgment that she did not appreciate you.

Anonymous said...

Viking. Christian theology notes that the soul begins at conception. That link provided by Anonymous a couple of days ago to Michael Roll would suggest scientific proof that souls survive after death yet both the established scientific community as well as the religious establishment are dead set against this revelation.

Viking said...

Nope, it doesn't.
there is huge disagreement on when ensoulment occurs.
St.Augustine said that an unformed body cannot contain a soul, and Aquinas also said the soul enters much later than conception. Later Popes changed what was traditional belief for over a thousand years, but after the reformation. And I am a Protestant.
This is useful but not exhaustive:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ensoulment

The Jewish understanding is that "quickening" is the moment the cells become a person, i.e. when the mother is aware of the foetus's movement.

In any case, there is no firm agreement on the subject, from a Christian point of view.

Anonymous said...

Good Lord! The Christian points of view are so bizarre! Because a soul will certainly not be determined by whether the baby is detected or not. Just look at how the number of mothers who have given birth to babies they never even knew they were pregnant with. Do those babies then somehow have no souls? While Anon's link to Michael Roll creeped me out [ can you just imagine dead folks who hated you HANGING around in the "etheral realm" yikes! ] I think their scientific approach to proving souls wins over the various contradictory & bizarre religious perspectives. This will be a matter to be resolved in laboratory / repeatable experiment based conditions.