“I love you,
and because I love you,
I would sooner have you hate me for telling you the truth
than adore me for telling you lies.”
-- Pietro Aretino
and because I love you,
I would sooner have you hate me for telling you the truth
than adore me for telling you lies.”
-- Pietro Aretino
I am a big fan of total disclosure and transparency; of putting the facts out there, and letting everyone read them for themselves, and make up thier own minds.
Sure it's nice when people agree with me; but I am one of those stubborn contrarian moron imbecile's who only wants anothers agreement, IF THEY REALLY AGREE WITH ME. I'd rather agree to disagree, than pretend we are in agreement, and live under that illusion.
If there is agreement between myself and another, or others; I want it to be REAL. I want it to be because they enquired into the evidence, and came to their own conclusion, which happens to be similar to mine. I don't want agreement cause they are polite, and agree for the sake of being agreeable. I don't want agreement cause they are too lazy to think, and so happy that I could do their thinking for them. I don't want their agreement cause they are addicted to political correctness, to belonging to a group of self-righteous pricks, cause they are petrified of even entertaining, let alone enquiring and examining any controversial thought.
So, I share the following email discussion between Black Coffee and myself, without any edits or censorship; as an opportunity, for:
- Black Coffee to come back to, and re-read, when he wonders why his comments are being deleted into the Spam Folder...;
- any critics of moderators who censor Black Coffee's comments, are welcome to apply my invitation to Black Coffee to email me, to hear their point of view
Brief Background History of My Offer for Impartial Listening to Black Coffee:
A recent post by Doberman, We are the Living History of South Africa opined:
“what to do about a particularly confused American individual who drops by occasionally and riles everybody. You know of whom I doth speaketh. This question has been posed before and the general consensus then was that we should allow him to comment, if only to watch with macabre fascination how the mind of a delusional leftwing American functions (functions? - too strong a word?) .. er, ticks over.”
My Response to Doberman:
As for Black Coffee; me being new here, I ain't had that much of a run-in with him; I am still waiting for him to answer my question, at my Cape Secession piece.
Either way, I am of the opinion, that no matter how disagreeable he may be; I prefer to err on the side of total transparency and freedom of speech. Socialists are the one's who favour censorship; lets attempt to avoid falling down that trap. I too was once in my la-la-land days, an Bleediing Heart Ignoramus 'Black Coffee'; thank God, i got hit over the head with a broomstick of reality.
Vanilla's perspective was:
@Andrea. I wholeheartedly support your notion of transparency, as does Dobes. This was the initial approach we took with BC. We don't want to stifle debate, and we would prefer dissenting voices to come out into the open. Unfortunately BC has a standard set of responses for every argument, therefore it becomes a circular game. It takes too much energy to debate trivial issues.
My response to Vanilla and Impartial Offer to Black Coffee:
Vanilla: Hear you, as I said, I ain't got all the information to make an informed decision on the issue; and on the one issue I did confront BC to 'put his money where his mouth was', I am still waiting.
Appears plausible BC does not want to be taken seriously, nor to take the issues posted seriously, with an intention to explore the issues to wherever facts lead....
Black Coffee: If I am incorrect BC, feel free to inform me by email, my email address is easily findable, and I will give you a fair hearing, but don't bullshit me; I got some fucking good friends who graduated from Howard University, with Frederick Douglass blood in their veins.
Dachshund's thoughts on negotiating with Black Coffee:
I wouldn't get into any e-mail correspondence with BC. It's a waste of time, and you may just land up with a barrage of pornography in your e-mail and a nasty little virus on your computer. That's just my personal guess about people like that. Hith daddy hath money. He may jutht want to hirt you.
My response to Dachshund:
I do not doubt your fairness and your conclusions, but -- for me -- I simply dont have access to your information, and accordingly cannot make a fully informed and fair conclusion.
My offer to BC, was simply that should he feel aggrieved by Vanilla and Doberman's decision (both of whom I consider very, very fair), he was welcome to email me, and I'd LISTEN.
An interesting thing happens when you find someone who very, very closely listens to you (at least this happened for me), is that all of a sudden you find that you haven't been listening very closely to yourself! A fascinating experience.
PS: An interesting anagram of LISTEN is SILENT! ;-)
How I got Relegated to Black Coffee's Censorship Spam File:
FROM: Andrea Muhrrteyn
TO: Black Coffee
Date: Sun, May 10, 2009 at 11:00 PM
Greg,
My feedback, for you to think about.
1. RE: Paragraphs and Reasoning
May I suggest that should you choose to seperate your trains of thought, into paragraphs, you may find that those receiving your communications, may find it easier to follow what it is you are trying to say. When all your thoughts are shoved into one long paragraph; of sentences with already vague language; it is a little difficult to know which of your thoughts go where. I read your paragraphs and think: what the fuck is this guy trying to say? If you want to convert me, or to dialogue with me; do me a favour; try and make it easier for me to understand what the fuck you are trying to say.
2. RE: Superficial questioning.
I get that some think your questioning is superficial. You disagree. Generally such disagreements occur often and frequently in daily life, and on blogs. If however, one party wishes the matter of thier opinion re: BC's 'superficial questioning' to be officially pronounced upon by an impartial tribunal kind of thing, as opposed to every reader of Greg/BC's view making up their own minds, then the matter would require adjudication by impartial individuals, where the evidence for and against is presented, with argument; for a final conclusion. Naturally this is a time consuming process, and not often entered to, unless one party is particularly agrieved by the issue of contention; and enough resources (time, interest and attention, etc) is available for such a process.
3. RE: Your Opinion as to the Quality of Contributors
Correct me if I am incorrect, but it appears your ideological and political leanings (maybe not all, but generally) could be described as 'liberal'. I don't have a problem with that.
I imagine that you are aware that ILuvSA, is not exactly considered a 'liberal' blog; to the contrary. It has a focus and a mission.
I imagine that you are also aware that there are a multitude of South AFrican blogs, that are very 'liberal', that share your views, that will think you are a wonderful American, to think as you do, about Africans in general. I imagine your views would be welcomed there without so much as the smallest little bit of further enquiry as to whether they are based upon rational enquiry or feel good bleeding heart do-gooder guilt.
The question then arises, for me: What the fuck is BC doing at ILuvSA? Not that I have a problem with you being there at all! Perhaps you are open to alternative ideas and opinions; perhaps you have not completely made up your mind? Perhaps you are simply at ILuvSA, cause you consider us a bunch of ignorant racist pricks that need to be converted, and you are there to convert us. Whatever your intentions are, I don't have a problem with any of the aforementioned intentions or a combination thereof.
All I have to say is this: If you are at ILuvSA cause you think we are a bunch of ignorant pricks and racists, you are welcome to leave at anytime. If you want to convert us; you are welcome to stay, and continue your missionary conversion efforts.
4. HOW SERIOUS A 'LIBERAL' MISSIONARY ARE YOU?
If you are serious about attempting to convert any one of us, let me tell you: I'd be happy to be converted, WITH EVIDENCE, NOT A BUNCH OF HOCUS POCUS LIES AND BULLSHIT PROPAGANDA!!.
So, bring me evidence, bring me serious enquiry, come and sit at the table and meet me, with an open mind that you will listen to what the fuck I have to say, and that you will HEAR MY GODDDAMN FUCKING EXPERIENCE IN EVERY FUCKING CELL OF YOUR BEING; and should my evidence be BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT; you will have the goddamn fucking courage to ADMIT TO the REALITY, I am sharing with you.
Cause, that is HOW FUCKING SEIROUS I AM! If you bring me sufficient beyond reasonable evidence, that shows me your ideology and thoughts about black Africans are worth considering and that I need to change my mind, to reflect a more accurate reality: I WILL DO SO; I'D FUCKING LOVE TO DO SO; BUT ONLY ON GODDAMN FUCKING EVIDENCE, NOT LIES, NOT FUCKING 'HOPE' NOT FUCKING EMPTY FUCKING WORDS AND RHETORIC.
So, let me know how serious you are Greg; cause if you are only fucking around with a few little thoughts cause you are fucking bored, or some such shit. DON'T WASTE MY FUCKING TIME. BUT IF YOU ARE GODDAMN FUCKING SERIOUS, I'LL FUCKING LISTEN TO YOU. I'LL MEET YOU HALFWAY.
So, the ball is in your court Greg/BC.
A question for you: What are your intentions at ILuvSA?
Lara
FROM: Black Coffee
TO: Andrea Muhrrteyn
DATE: Mon, May 11, 2009 at 12:01 AM
Wow, I have not read replies with that many "fucking this, fucking that" in a long time. I do not have the time to submit whether or not my questioning is superficial. If Doberman and Vanilla Ice want to comfort themselves thinking that let them. My thinking in my opinion is rational and based not only on what I "read in books", as Doberman wrote in his diatribe against me, but is based also on newspaper reports from any given time period AS WELL AS personal observations within South Africa. It is not my intent to convert anyone on the blog, I merely want to put my 50 cents in so to speak. What are the liberal blogs you refer to? I would love to visit some, especially some with more black South African participation. My intention on iluvsa is to monitor what the racists are thinking and saying and also find out what goes on in SA on the negative side. I am also interested, believe it or not, in finding out white perspectives because while in South Africa my interactions with whites was largely limited to a few professors and students at Wits University, though I did also meet a few very nice white pastors. If we were to actually ever meet in person in SA or elsewhere, yes I would listen to you but then I would put your arguments to a person from AZAPO and listen to him or her as well. That's how I am, not nearly as closed-minded as Doberman thinks presented me in that diatribe. A retraction would be nice because Doberman - I think you are getting that from Albeus whose agenda is nothing less than to spew hatred.
FROM: Andrea Muhrrteyn
TO: Black Coffee
DATE: Mon, May 11, 2009 at 2:23 AM
Greg,
I'd be happy to read your response with greater depth, if you would be so kind as to follow my VERY FUCKING SIMPLE REQUEST #1, in my prior letter to you, titled Paragraphs and Reasoning
If it is impossible to get you to follow simple clear means of paragraph formatting and seperation of issues for clarification of communication purposes, so that your message can be understood by any proposed reader, such as myself; then it is pointless wasting my time to attempt to decode your whirlpool-of-confused-jumble-sale communication.
What exactly about Paragraphs and Reasoning did you not understand, and I would be happy to clarify it for you?
Lara
FROM: Black Coffee
TO: Andrea Muhrrteyn
DATE: Mon, May 11, 2009 at 2:43 AM
I understand paragraphs and reasoning perfectly. I do that in my dissertation and other formal writing, I did not think I need to do so in email. My message is not that confusing. Read it again - or not, your choice.
FROM: Andrea Muhrrteyn
TO: Black Coffee
DATE: Mon, May 11, 2009 at 12:16 PM
A confused mind, does not consider its message confusing; cause it is confused.
If you understand paragraphs and reasoning perfectly, I shall believe that you do so, when YOU PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH. So demonstrate to me, your understanding of the principles in your communications with me, that you want me to take you serious and listen to you. When you do, I will take you serious and listen to you.
Your choice.
FROM: Black Coffee
TO: Andrea Muhrrteyn
DATE: Mon, May 11, 2009 at 3:52 PM
Oh geez, maybe it's better we not meet after all.
Here it is though.
First - my reasoning is not superficial. Sometimes I have been repetitive though because Doberman allows Albeus to spew his hatred on the blog and he is repetitive ad nauseum, the very thing that Vanilla Ice accused me of.
Second - I am not on a mission to convert anybody on the blog. My purpose was merely to put in my 50 cents, be the voice of reason when the blog pumps and pumps negativity about South Africa.
I might be willing to listen to you but then I would be equally willing to listen to someone from ANC, AZAPO and PAC.
Then again, there is no doubt in my mind that apartheid was an evil, oppressive system. The problems you see today, especially the crime, all go back to that legacy. Give me one good reason then why I should listen to those who would justify apartheid or put a spin on it. But I would give them a chance to explain their side.
Finally, the Cape is not going to secede. Neither Zuma nor any other president of South Africa will let that happen, but dream on if you wish.
FROM: Andrea Muhrrteyn
TO: Black Coffee
DATE: Mon, May 11, 2009 at 9:19 PM
Greg,
I don't know where you got the meeting idea, but whatever.
[Re: Superficial Reasoning & Repetitive Spewing of Hatred]
Doberman started the blog for a PURPOSE. That purpose is to share, from many different perspectives, the views that Doberman, Albeus et all have been sharing. If you don't like their views, you are welcome to go elsewhere, where views such as yours are welcomed. There are many blogs that are racists against white nationalists, who of course don't consider themselves 'racists' -- just like you. You are a racist against white nationalists. The difference between Doberman et al, are that they are not in denial about their 'racism'. They admit it. You don't, you consider yourself superior to them, and hate them, for hating blacks. So what is the difference between you and them. They are honest about who they are and are willing to back up thier 'racism' with justification for how and why they became racists. You are not.
[RE: Not on a mission to convert anybody]
Exactly, i was hoping for once you would be honest. If you are not interested in converting anyone on the blog, to your 'reason'; then you'd be happy to keep your mouth shut. Anyone who is sharing htier opinions, hoping to change someone else's mind is a missionary. Some are just honest and consicous thereof; and back up thier reasoning, with evidence and others think they should be listened to cause their minds are so ego-centric, they think they are the 'voice of reason'. Ha, Ha....
[Re: 50 cents voice of reason to a negativity pumping blog]
If reality is 'negativity' then a REALIST PUMPS REALITY.. irrespective of whether others consider it negative or not. If I tell a child don't touch the godddamn fucking stove, cause it is hot; you can tell me to stop spewing negativity about hte heat of the stove. REALITY IS REALITY Gret, and that is their reality. Your reality is different. Thats okay. YOu want your reality to be theirs, it isn't. Wake up!
[Re: Might be willing to listen to you, ANC, AZAPO, PAC, et al]
I coulnd't care less if you 'might be willing' to listen to me... If you want to, maeke up your goddamn fucking mind, if not... FUCK OFF! i coulldn't give a fuck if additionally you choose to listen to my former husband, who is African American and a former Black Panther and Black Guerrilla Familymember. You can listen to the devil if you want. All I am saying is I am not going to continue this fucking conversaiton if you don't want to LISTEN.
i AM NOT GOING TO DISCUSS ANY POLITICAL ISSUE WITH YOU, UNTIL YOU MAKE A DECISION WHETHER YOU ARE INTERESTED IN LISTENING, REALLY FUCKING LISTNEING WITH EVERY FUCKING CELL OFYOUR BEING, AND YOU TELL ME AND MAKE A COMMITMENT THAT IS WHAT YOU WANT TO DO.
Cause I will be wasting my time, spending time to write shit to you, that you couldn't igve a fuck to really listen to. I have better things to do. IF YOU REALLY WANT TO LISTEN, LET ME KNOW.
If not, no big deal.. I won't waste your time and you wont waste mine. I dno't spend time in conversations with people who are not willing to make a concerted commitment to seriously listen; not cause they have to, BUT BECAUSE THEY WANT TO.
So, unless you decide you really want to listen; i shall consider this the end of the conversation.
Take care and all the best.
Lara
FROM: Black Coffee
TO: Andrea Muhrrteyn
DATE: May 12, 2009 at 7:10 AM
Lara or Andrea or whatever the hell your real name is - we don't even know each other. First you invite me on the blog through a comment to email you, then you tell me email you in paragraphs. What are you the fucking queen of cyberspace? If we were to meet I would divorce you of any queendom illusions real quick. Now, I believe in women's equality, but the fact that in every email to me you cuss like a sailor indicates an unladylike behavior, the fact that you can not put your thoughts out in any other, constructive way and the fact that frankly you come off as an imbecile little lady. So I think it is time to end this little exchange and assign you to the spam file.
Thanks for nothing.
Update: Tue, May 12, 2009 at 4:54 PM
FROM: Black Coffee
TO: Andrea Muhrrteyn
DATE: Tue, May 12, 2009 at 4:07 PM
Why did you proceed to put our email exchange up on the blog, it was supposed to be between us. In any case, I will reconsider and read your emails, but this time they must be free of any cusswords. Send me an email without a single "fuck" in it and I will consider your views and yes I will "listen." If you can not do that then it shows you have no credibility. And why is the Black Panther your former and not your current husband?
FROM: Andrea Muhrrteyn
TO: Black Coffee
DATE: Tue, May 12, 2009 at 4:54 PM
Greg,
Do you WANT to listen Greg?
Do you WANT me to be 100% HONEST with you?
If so; that means means that if what I think about anything can best be described by the word FUCK, then I am HONEST, and use the word FUCK.
If you don't want me to be honest, and you want me to dilute the word FUCK, and make FUCK politically correct, cause you are sensitive to the word FUCK; i guess I am not the person to be talking to, in order to represent your side of the story, with Doberman and Vanilla; am I?
As for credibility? Why the fuck you would imagine I would need your version of the interpretation of 'credibility'?
The only people, I give a fuck about being CREDIBLE with, are those who VALUE 100% HONESTY, the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, NOT ONLY IN WORDS, BUT IN TONE OF VOICE, AND IN BODY LANGUAGE!!!
I put our email exchange on the blog, cause I had offered to spend my time to listen to you, and cause I did, and cause I have sweet fuck all to hide. Nothing I write or say to anyone is a secret; except for where an individual has requested to me in clear unequivocal terms, that they prefer their correspondence with me to be a secret; and I have explicitly and unequivocally agreed thereto. You have not made such a request, and if you did, I would not agree thereto; unless you provided me with very, very good reasons, that I thought justified secrecy in communications from you, or to you.
I publicaly invited you to email me, as an offer, to hear your side of the story, in terms of why your comments were being censored. In the first email I sent you, I clarified my request, and my commitment; where I stood on the issue.
It was an offer -- you were not obliged to accept it; and you are not obliged to continue the conversation at all. If you want me to hear you clearly; then you must attempt to be clear.
If you want me to understand which of your thoughts go with what reasoning; it helps if you seperate them into paragraphs and make it easier for me to follow.
I am busy; I have a fucking lot to do. If you want some of my time to hear your views, put them in a way, that makes it quicker and less time consuming to hear them.
I shall continue to update that page with our communications, for now.
Lara
Update: Wed, May 13, 2009 at 12:20 PM
FROM: Black Coffee
TO: Andrea Muhrrteyn
DATE: Tue, May 12, 2009 at 5:00 PM
What exactly are you trying to say? You are completely unclear - you accused me of being confused? You appear confused. I would like to hear your political views. Are you racist? Do you believe that South Africa belongs to whites? That the Cape belongs to whites?
My perception is that historically South Africa, and I mean 100% of it from Cape to Limpopo, belongs to blacks.
I am not sensitive to word fuck, but when you can not express your thoughts without using that word that shows that you aparently have no thoughts.
You still have not answered why the Black Panther is your former not current husband. Perhaps he got tired of hearing "fuck" all te time.
FROM: Andrea Muhrrteyn
TO: Black Coffee
DATE: May 13, 2009 at 12:20 PM
Greg,
What do you mean by 'what exactly are you trying to say'? Which paragraph or sentence do you not understand and want me to explain.
The same question applies to: "You are completely unclear - you accused me of being confused? You appear confused" Which paragraph or sentence is unclear or confusing, that I can clarify for you.
I am a little confused, why you would like to hear my political views, if you think I am confused.
Am I racist? It depends how you define 'racist'. In my experience I have not met one person on this entire planet, in all the countries that I have travelled to who is not racist, according to my definition. I have simply met people who are honest about their 'racism' and people who are in self-rigthteous denial about their 'racism'.
I think everyone on this planet is a 'racist' cause we all in some ways, irghtly so mostly, consider ourselves superior to another, in any given field of sport, or politics, or intellect, or common sense or whatever. You are superior to me in some things, and I am superior to you in others. Those who profess to not be 'racists', think that everyone is equal in all things, and those who say they are 'superior' in certain issues, are 'racists'. They think they are superior to 'racists', but they are not 'racist'? Go figure. Talk about self righteous denial!
RE: Do you believe that South Africa belongs to whites? That the Cape belongs to whites?
Is this a legal question, a philosophical question, a historical question, or in what context, do you refer to the word 'belong'? For example; in law, possession is nine-tenths of the law. Please clarify your question.
As far as I am aware, and accordingly my working assumption, is that there were no Blacks (Xhosa's, Zulu's et al) in the Cape when the Dutch (whites) arrived in the Cape. The first blacks, the whites came across, in their treck East were the blacks in the Eastern Cape, beyond the Fish River.
I imagine you are in denial about your sensitivity to the word fuck, cause if you were not; how would you explain: "when you can not express your thoughts without using that word that shows that you aparently have no thoughts."
Your logic and inductive reasoning, is hilarious. If you are trying to be insulting; I wouldn't bother. You dont think I have thoughts, so how the fuck would you remotely be capable to coming any conclusion about thoughts, that you allege don't exist?
As for the Black Panther; ask him. You don't appear to believe a single fucking thing I say to you; so if you want to know, ask him. I cannot wait to receive his letter, with his opinions about the one person in his life, who gave a fuck for him; and not just in words.
Regards
Lara
63 Opinion(s):
Andrea: that was fucking hilarious and thanks for fucking well laying down the line with this misogynistic little prick.
Yep Andy, now you know..;) Find the nearest brick wall and smack forehead on said wall. It would hurt less than arguing with BC. Still, I think he means well in a strange way, it's just that he is so very misinformed about SA that when we present views that are contrary to what he has been told all his life, I suppose there is some degree of adjustment necessary which he is trying to overcome (I think) but can't quite get there. He shows promise then slips back.
The reason being is probably because we are white "racist" South Africans, as he was told, "evildoers" to quote Dubya. Hearing then "evil whiteys" present alternative point of views of the history he has only read about is a bridge too far.
It's like trying to bring him into the light, but he wants to stay in the shadows where it is safe and he knows all the scary noises.
Btw, y'all, you've all been warned. Mess with this blog and you get a visit from Andy, got it? ;o)~
Dachshund: Pleasure.
Doberman: Yes, you can say 'I told you so!' ;-). No problem. And I agree with you about BC; and as I said he is welcome to change his mind; he is not in my spam folder; all he needs to do is decide whether he WANTS TO LISTEN.
Trying to unlearn years of misinformation is impossible for some.
BC actually thought that the author swears to much, not realizing that only he is the cause.
The fact of the matter is this, based on my own experience.
It is a total waste of time and effort to communicate with the likes of BC, since you merely end up where you started. The circle is sometimes bigger and then smaller, but the outcome remains the same.
Such people have decided ages ago what they want to believe - you can throw evidence at them stacked as high as Burj Dubai and all they see is the muddy puddle their noses are stuck in.
You need to leave them to drown a bit, before they hopefully gasp for air at some point and notice the world beyond the perimeter of the puddle.
Trust me Andrea, if BC says "the Cape is NOT going to seceed" then it will not!
The reason is two-fold but quite simple. One, BC is far closer to those who determine who gets their own countries and who doesn't than any of us white africans. Two, it took them over two-hundred years to force all of the different countries in South Africa to join, the last conflict at extremely great cost to them!
I appreciate what you're trying to do, but Greg's people rule the Western World! We are but unwilling servants in their power struggle with the East.
Anonymous (12 May 2009 11:00 PM)
Trust you, huh! When you ain't (i) got the courage to put your name, next to your opinion, and (ii) provide no evidence for your opinion. Thats hilarious, thanks for the laugh. I am quite willing to entertain your thoughts as true though...
1. So, since when did you become the Black Pope and Pentagon's Personal Military Strategy Secretary? ;-)
2. Do you think Henry Kissinger and Vladimir Putin's REALPOLITIK is based in absolute future's?
3. Put Diferently: Do you think they think like Greg, and aren't amenable to changing hteir minds very, very quickly, when they are provided with new information to justify changing their minds?
4. Who, in your opinion, are 'Gregs people'?
@Dachshund, Dobes ... oh the whole fucking lot. I woke up this morning to such a good laugh, especially the opening comment by Dachshund. I will admit his emails get deleted. I don't have the time to read shit, so my listening has become impaired. Interesting titbit, BC enrolled for his doctorate in the late 90's (according to him) and apparently is nearing completion now. 10 years? Doesn't that seem like a long journey?
@Andrea. This is a wonderful way of dealing with another "problem" we are having. I hope Dobes has copies of all the correspondence. Your thoughts guys?
Thankyou for this illuminating posting.
I also agree that BC does mean well, and I don't think he is out to 'convert' anyone on the site. I think in many ways we are a case study for him, and as such he is unlikely to have his views altered.
I agree with Dobes in that respect. when someone has been indoctrinated, particularly with Marxism, it is extremely difficult to take another person's opinion seriously. I was a cult exit counsellor at university and the dynamic is the same: getting that person to sit and listen to your opinions is not only impossible but counter-productive; they must be asked questions until they deconstruct themselves. It is frustrating but it is the only way to remove someone from the circular view of the world they have been forced to accept.
That said, asking him (no matter how politely) to put his thoughts in paragraph form is only going to annoy him - and then cursing more vigorously when he (also politely) asked you not to is only going to make him impossible to deal with. With that in mind, is this really ever going to be a "negotiation"?
As Islandshark says, BC is in deep and is not going to be negotiated out of views that have taken years to form - it will take a Road to Damascus moment to change his views.
Viking, what is a cult exit councilor?
@Andrea. Please explain your X and Y axis on the graph. I would like to add it to my archive. It seems to suggest that the more questions I ask, the fewer answers I get, the more ignorant I become. Therefore the optimal approach is to not ask questions and therefore you cannot display any ignorance.
My comment will probably get deleted - but just in case there was nothing misogynistic in my email. Vanilla Ice - indeed it has been a long journey to the doctorate but at least I am almost there. Finally for a blog and contributors who claim to be interested in truth and nothing but the truth - by whose definition do you define "truth"? What I see are quarter and half-truths mixed in with lots of anti-ANC propaganda.
Vanilla (4:52 AM): The graph I got from KK's blogpost, The Expansion of Ignorance, where he explains his original intention of X & Y, in terms of the Information Society.
Few excerpts I liked:
It is clear that “dark” is a euphemism for ignorance. We really have no idea what the bulk of the universe is made of. We find a similar state of ignorance if we probe deeply into the cell, the brain, or even the earth. We don’t know nothin’.
Yet it is also clear that we know vastly more about the universe than we did a century ago.
Yet the paradox of science is that every answer breeds at least two new questions. More answers, more questions. Telescopes and microscopes expanded not only what we knew, but what we didn’t know. They allowed us to spy into our ignorance. New and better tools permit us new and better questions. All our knowledge about subatomic particles derived from the new questions generated after we invented an atom smasher.
Thus even though our knowledge is expanding exponentially, our questions are expanding exponentially faster. And as mathematicians will tell you, the widening gap between two exponential curves is itself an exponential curve. That gap between questions and answers is our ignorance, and it is growing exponentialy. In other words, science is a method that chiefly expands our ignorance rather than our knowledge.
Or, to put it another way, we have not yet reached our maximum ignorance.
My comment was that of: The Village Idiot on March 7, 2009 at 12:26 PM ;-)
****
CULT OF SECRECY 'IGNORANCE':
For me the graph, has other dimensions, where I consider it reasonably relevant; in what I call the Cult of Secrecy Society.
Where you have questions, to which there are available answers, but those answers are deliberately withheld for political expedience and power manipulations reasons, under the rubric of 'national security' (which is just another word for 'politicians ego-security': all the intelligence agencies know what each other are doing; and they are all screwing their citizens; its the citizens the information is being withheld from).
So in a Cult of Secrecy Society; the ignorance in this graph, is deliberately manufactured, by those withholding the Answers.
Anyway, thats my current working assumption!
Viking (13 May 2009 4:04 AM)
The road to hell is paved with good intentions, brother! Vladimir Lenin meant well; so did Stalin, so did Hitler. We all 'mean well'; at least that is what we tell ourselves, or those who question our actions, about what we are doing; even if we don't really believe ourselves.
I disagree (and am quite okay to agree to disagree) that he is not out to convert anyone.
I seriously doubt he is doing a 'case study'; unless that case study is seriously impaired in terms of its rational scientific enquiry principles.
If you do a case study, your general hypothesis, should be just that: a general hypothesis, that you are forced, by the principles of ethical enquiry, to adjust to the results of your enquiry.
Your enquiry involves asking many questions; not in demanding and insisting that your case subjects are racists, and should not be giving you the answers they are giving you!
From my observation, Black Coffee is a liberal missionary! Don't bother me, I have friends who are liberal missionaries. Some of them I'd happily give my life for; they are old school liberals, like Jefferson. I ain't got a problem with BC as a liberal missionary; all i ask is that he prove his missionary zeal principles with more than quotes from his liberal bible; but with a bit of evidence. That he demonstrate an understanding for why this savage's 'religion' is suitable for this savage, and why this former liberal deserted the liberal church, as being two-faced, fake, liars and without integrity and honour.
And I agree with you that he has no intention of altering his views; I doubt he has any intention of enquiring whether his views are based upon solid rock foundation principles and facts.
@BC. Surprised you.
@Andrea. I agree. I have mentioned somewhere before that he is being selective with the data to fit his hypothesis. He should have established a null hypothesis (as we all should do instinctively), something like Black South Africans are not racist. Then he should seek out the data and covert this into knowledge. If the data, and its interpretation, do not fit the hypothesis, then reject the hypothesis and accept the alternative, namely Black South Africans are racist. Do not, and a lot of really weak researchers do this, make the data fit the hypothesis because the results may be morally repugnant. This is what science is about and we have a duty to report. It surprises me that after 10 years BC has such a rudimentary grasp of the concept.
BC does think of the site as a case study. He admits it in his email, where he says he wants to see "what the racists have to say".
He should be approaching it from a neutral point of view but nobody can ever do that. I am starting to agree with Islandshark that he is impossible to deal with, but on the other hand I am interested in what he has to say, also from a "case study" point of view. I am not likely to change my views, but am open to having them more "fine-tuned", and the questions he poses are food for thought.
I don't think Black Coffee can be compared to Stalin and Hitler! he doesn't have his own country for one thing.....
And when someone gets riled up and angry at his comments? bear in mind this may be deliberate. I am happy to talk to you, BC, at any time, but online rather than off.
Andrea, as you know there is a difference between modern liberals (who are really socialists) and "old-school" Liberals like Jefferson. Only the word is the same - Gladstone is an example of an old-school Liberal and yet he was no socialist!
Many of the folks on here are Liberals, in that we believe in freedom of speech and opposition to censorship, and are against social engineering.
Viking
Lots of people say lots of things, some mean what they say, and practice what they preach; others don't.
I guess my definition of what a case study is, and how to enquire within a case study and to proceed therein, is different to Black Coffee's. No problem.
A man tells me 'rape is love'. For him it may be; but that doesn't mean that I am willing to simply discard my definition, and follow the pied piper.
Black Coffee is more than welcome to his own definitons, and behaviour in accordance to his defintions. He doesn't get my respect that his conclusions are worthy for me to consider as 'evidence', with what I interpret as his current 'case study'.
You are welcome to dialogue with him offline. Good Luck.
I was not comparing BC to Stalin & Hitler; I was comparing the issue of 'good intentions' -- it obviously went way over your head! If Stalin can kill millions, totaly believing in his 'good intentions'; do you think BC can bullshit Viking, with his good intentions? If not, take the test Viking! ;-)
As for getting angry and riled up! That was funny!
@Viking, Hahahahaha..this is hilarious. Sorry if it's at your expense. Consider whether you want to go down this road. Sticky gum comes to mind so take a deep breath.
Andrea, I'm the guy who doesn't "put his name next to his comments" as I've recently ceased employment of the great Rothschild Clan and I will be dealt with should my name be linked to such Truths!
Also witnessed first hand the goings on in Namibia upon our withdrawal of Angola and later Namibia.
That said, if you don't want my help, I'll quit writing on this blog and, as I can't bear reading nonsense without correcting people (not referring to your posts as I think you're doing well to get most to question what they're told), I will also cease reading the Blog.
Been there, witnessed that!
Enjoy
Anon: Thanks for your comment.
1. I ain't got a problem with you being anon at all; if you look back to my response to you: (i) it was humourous, with a smiley (;-)); and (ii) I said I'd be happy to entertain your thoughts as true.
2. I hope you don't explect me to blindly believe you about the Rothschild clan; but to consider your statement as plausibly true, as it may also be made by a crank.
3. For me, I would consider it plausible, depending further on the quality of additional information provided; and also understand that the greater the accuracy thereof, the greater the problems for you.
Hear you, witness in Namibia and Angola.
I, and to my knowledge VI, Doberman, et al; welcome all comments, some of us particularly those we disagree with, that are backed up with info to challenge our working assumptions theories.
So, please feel welcomed to comment, from me. Please also understand, as I am sure you would; I am happy to change my working assumption on any issue, but from hard experience, I have learnt that I must not do so, cause I 'like the messenger' or so; but on the hard reality facts, as much as I am able to discern them.
If you find any value from reading the blog, I hope you will continue to not only read it, and provide us with feedback; so that we are all able to get value from it; and each others feedback.
That is my view; if or where I don't practice what I preach, please feel free to point out my blinders, so that I can amend my ways.
Hi Andrea
I wasn't offering to dialogue with BC offline! I like to stay in the public sphere thank you.
As for the Hitler and Stalin comment, my point is that BC's "good intentions" have no consequences, other than to annoy a few bloggers.
His intentions may be to annoy people, to challenge people's ideas, or merely to obtain material for his thesis. I don't know. I don't really care. I am glad to read what he writes. I am immune to Marxism/liberalism.
Your comments may have gone over my head; although, while I am not as eloquent as Vanilla Ice for one, very little does.
Viking: Well, if you want to dialogue with him online, then you must take that up with the moderators, and those who complained.
I gave BC the offer to hear his side; as to why his 'superficial questions' etc should not be deleted. Above is the result of our correspondence.
Agreed on the minimal consequences of BC's 'good intentions'. For me, when I am totally convinced of my 'good intentions'; I get a red flag, and ask myself 'how sure am I, about my good intentions, am I just bullshitting myself'?
So for me, simply the issue coming into my awareness of 'my good intentions' is for me a red flag, not alwys, but worthy of enquiry! Cause why has my ego dragged out a quick rationalisation, to overcome any other conscientious restraint? Anyway, thats just a bit of the inner dialogue within me; don't know what others forms of personal introspection and critique goes like..
No.. I think we were viewing hte issue from subtle different perspectives; and weren't clear about that. Who knows?
This is my farewell. I can’t stomach the fact that you endorse this nonsense from Andrea. If you want to create an environment for discussion then there needs to be objectivity. I used to find it here on this site but not anymore.
OK, it is just my bad luck that Andrea just started blogging here when I happened to discuss some very personal issues. Had that not been the case I may not have come to this conclusion so soon… or maybe it was just her bad luck.
I can’t say you guys have not hurt my feelings but then again I have to take responsibility for my mistake of discussing personal things with strangers. So the fact is that I’ve made the mistake and now there is no going back again. I only thought of the upside of having the internet as a resource for discussions. Well now I’ve discovered that there is a downside as well.
Everybody taking offense by Andreas comments, sorry but I’m not going to sacrifice my time and energy when I don’t really see any good that it will do for SA to argue with her. Yes Dobes, it is more painful than hitting your head against a brick wall. And at the end of the day we are all just anonymous people (with some pleasant exceptions) with no one else’s interests at heart except our own and South Africa, our country. Anyhow, there are some other great blogs out there. I hope you guys get your senses back sooner than later.
Adios
PS. Andrea, don’t bother extending a hand of friendship in a response. I’m not coming back to this site.
PPS. I ask that you consider who you take your anger out on if you have a response. I have always treated the regulars on this site with reasonable respect, with exception to Andrea and BC.
@FishEagle
An exit counsellor helps people involved in cults and their families, and tries to counter brainwashing techniques
@Andrea
I think you've nicely defined critical thinking right there :)
I'm unhappy with your exit FE but will keep in touch by mail.
Your experiences of life in SA are valid and helpful.
FishEagle:
1. Since when did you become a quitter?
2. Andrea's nonsense: What nonsense? You may be correct, however back up your allegation with a bit of facts and argument, and even I may agree.
3. Objectivity is dependent upon many factors; among others I'd say the quality of questions they had asked and answers searched for, in Vanillas graph. Objectivity at the bottom of that graph may be quite a different view, than at the other end of that questions graph.
4. What are you pissed off with me about; that i seemingly invaded your 'all male' (sans DeHond) attention territory fest?
5. Generalisation, but Men deal with personal issues such as you described with great difficulty. They clearly did not live up to expectaions you had of them, (as men) they probably haven't even begun to ask themselves the correct question, to get a reasonable answer, in terms of understanding your expectations of them.
6. Your personal issues. I don't know what you want regarding this. If you were sitting across from me, telling me your story, I could get your message, not only by the words (7%), the tone of voice (28% of your message) and your body language (55% of your message). I could give you a hug. I could just listen, and let you tell your story.
In this blog I am stuck with only hearng 7% of your message (the words only!); the margin for a fuck up of interpretation on my part, of your message with only 7% being received is fucking huge! I am walking on fucking thin ice!
So, do I simply share that I admire your gutsyness for sharing your personal story? Or do I launch in and ask you questions?
Quick story: In 1985, we lived in a small town in Natal. My parents are very religious and the church they attended had decided to let blacks attend the church. The town was outraged. Few weeks later, my mother went jogging, and was violently and viciously raped and strangled. Her dog managed to arrive (he is old, jogs slowly) and chase away the attacker. Due to my mothers church relationship, the police and many people in town accused her of deserving being raped, as a result of the church's choice to accept black membership. The details of the rape were released to the town, and people made death threats by telephone, with creative allegations on how she enjoyed the experience, and bricks thrown into our yard, etc. The police refused to investigate.
It was hell, but you know what; our family got through it. We had sad days, mad days, furious days, raging days, we cried, we screamed; and we eventually forgave ourselves and the ignorant pricks and police.
I do not want that to happen to anyone, and it was hell going through.... AND I CAN AND HAVE NOTICED THAT WE TOOK THE TRAGEDY AND PAIN, AND WE USED IT TO GROW EMOTIONALLY, PSYCHOLOGICALLY AND IN MANY OTHER WAYS... in the end our family became stronger.. through using the tragedy to share, to love and to forgive. WE REFUSED TO LET IT BREAK US APART! We turned the tragedy into a blessing.
I hope, that someday you too can say: the tragedy of my rape did not break me, it was hell to confront and to go through, but in the end confronting the pain and overcoming it made me stronger, it made me more loving, it made me who I am. Dad and Mom I forgive you!
That is what I wish for you. I imagine you have the guts; and I imagine it has been hard work and it will continue to be.
And I also notice writing this -- will she think I am being patronising? Well maybe you do, fuck all i can do about htat. Maybe today you think I am one patronising fucking bitch, and maybe in 2 years time you come back and you think: Thanks Andrea, I appreciate you for what you said.'
Whatever.. take what you can that is useful, and ignore the rest.
If you really want to leave; that is your choice.
If you are only saying you want to leave; to see whether anyone actualy wants you around to stay.
I want you around, your comments, your thoughts, your arguments, your 'fuck you's; all of you; if you want to be around.
If not; I wish you all the best. YOu are more than welcome back, anytime you want to change your mind.
Andrea
Andrea - do you see the part about where you go on about "credibility" and "100% truth"? That is part I found confusing, what exactly were you trying to say? If possible, try to read that same email imagining yourself as a recipient who does not know you. Would that have been perfectly clear? What is your definition of "truth"? The whole concept of truth is very philosophical but it is often subjective.
All human beings can be contradictory - myself definitely included. I was taken aback somewhat by your endless cussing and apologize if I said things which could be interpreted as mysogynistic. The more I thought about it - I listen to rap music where they cuss like a sailor and have no problem with it, so why should I have a problem with it in email? So, you may go back to cussing in your emails or here if you wish, but do explain your positions and where you are coming from.
Viking - I am not a Marxist. I do see some value in parts of Marx's theory, particularly his analysis of capitalism. However, even that is not without its flaws. In the past I have praised Steve Biko and still consider him to have been one of South Africa's most brilliant minds. However, no human being is perfect. In his writings Biko glorified a certain pre-colonial "African communalism." I think that may have contained some flaws, namely that from my studies of African history it seems that most pre-colonial societies had communalism that Biko spoke about in theory. However, the various chiefs or "indunas" in Zulu had a lot of say in terms of how this "communalism" went.
I have been giving your exit thought and all i can add is -
Fish Eagle "I want you around, your comments, your thoughts, your arguments, your 'fuck you's; all of you; if you want to be around. "
And "ditto" Viking 12:45
Some day are diamonds and some days are gold and some days are just f*cking crappy. Skip the crappy ones! Lets move on.
@FishEagle. Oh come on doll, don't leave us now. We are just getting started. Andrea draws attention to a valid point (and she will share a funny anecdote in a few days), most of the message is lost because we don't have the opportunity to see and hear. We try our best, and at the same time we try to keep the blog fresh and vibrant. I am sure we have stood on your toes, mine are always bruised, but "I want you around, your comments, your thoughts, your arguments, your 'fuck you's; all of you; if you want to be around."
Hi Black Coffee
I agree, marxism is a useful analytical tool.
I'm not sure about pre-colonial African communalism, that is very Marxist - doesn't it strike you as highly idealistic?
I would also point out that Biko's views is at odds with contemporary histories of African kingdoms, all of which were feudal in structure like European ones. There may have been exceptions, such as the Khoi-San but it is a subject I would like to know more about.
This was your allegation that I had no credibility:
Send me an email without a single "fuck" in it and I will consider your views and yes I will "listen." If you can not do that then it shows you have no credibility.
Am I correct?
Now what do you not understand about my response?
Answer: If you only grant people 'credibility' when they don't use the word 'fuck'; i couldn't care less being 'credible' to you!
As for 'truth', the way in which I determine 'truth' is explained in great depth in Practicing Radical Honesty.
'Endless cussing'??? Surely you jest? How do you define 'endless'?
I don't 'cuss' cause I have got permission to cuss, wehther from you, or a Magistrate in a court of law! If the truth of what I want to say, includes the word 'fuck' then I say that word, cause it is the truth of what I want to say.
I am not a politician nor intent on putting on some BS PR stunt to pretend i don't cuss. I spent 8 years at sea, and most of my friends are former military. If you think i cuss, best you don't join the army, and most defintily not the navy!!
Andrea - once again I apologize for saying that you have no credibility due to "endless cussing." I am not going to get into a philosophical debate though about the word "endless." My initial response which you quoted was motivated by me having been taken aback and also being tired after work, believe it or not.
@ FE, you and I go way back ;) I'd be very upset if you stopped visiting. Would you reconsider m'dear? Pllleeeezzz......;)
I know more about psychology than all of you put together and multiply that by hundred. Christ, I’ve been working it for the last 30 years since I was practically born. But I get the impression that because I’m the rape survivor, you guys think I’m the one that’s not being objective here. That just made me realize how little you people understood about all my previous comments.
I’ve flattened every single obstacle that’s come up in my life, and even you guys must be able to grasp how much FAITH that’s taken, since you now know my story. Oh wait, I forgot, you guys are the ultimate crusaders of critical thinking. Because she says so, it isn’t so!!! Hahahahahahaha
No biggy, I’m over my hurt, but what now?
Dobes, if you use Andrea on your site you are going to do damage. You can’t expect her to have discussions with people about crime in SA. That’s what this blog is often about, isn’t it??? Think, fuck it!!!
Andrea, you can’t share your stuff with other people before you’ve made sense of it yourself. You have to raise the child in you, like I explained under a previous comment regarding Black Coffee. Anybody remember that? I’m sure he does. I could sense your denial from a mile away, which you chose to subtly throw in my direction in the form of patronization. I WILL NOT BACK DOWN IF I SENSE DENIAL. Only someone that understands psychology will know why that is so important.
For me to stay alive I HAVE TO KEEP MY HEART OPEN. As I’m writing this I am thinking to myself, please just don’t let me have to read through another response from Andrea. Andrea, you have the power to take a knife and thrust it into my heart. I just don’t think you know it. You will kill me, if only mentally.
Those are the stakes for me. So when I weigh up the costs and benefits, I realize I don’t even know your names!!! What are the stakes for you? Maybe you understand better now why I’m leaving.
I’m sorry we were all just unlucky.
@ FE, I was not involved in your spat with Andrea and quite frankly I am too busy to be able to control everything that is posted and said on this blog. It's an open discussion forum for goodness' sakes. People will say what they want and often not what you like.
If Andrea pees you off, then stay away from her. That's true in life. Avoid problems unless you must deal with them. If Andrea bothers you, and considering everyone here is anonymous, why do you let her get to you so much? Grow a thicker skin. You don't think I get a lot of flak for this blog? Just its existence has caused me shit - and we are mild dammit, non racist, non-confrontational, non sensational, non fucking everything. Yet we cop a lot of shit all the time.
This blog is about South Africa and general topics of interest. Food for thought items, things that will pique people's interests, mind exercises, you should know that as someone with extensive "psychology" knowledge
Dammit I'm an engineer, a damn good one at that I might add so maybe I know a load more about that subject than most on here, so if someone were to come on here and push their 9-11 troofer theories why the WTC towers collapsed I would do my best to argue them out of their irrational thoughts but fuck to hell, I wouldn't get upset about it!! Don't let people that are strangers get you upset. Walk away. Agree to disagree.
Take BC. I have many chats with BC privately almost every day and he and I have had big tiffs and we are still poles apart on ideas but again, dammit, I am prepared to talk to him. He has insulted me, I have insulted him. That's COMMUNICATION. I'm not going to convince him of my position, he is not going to convince me of his position, so we move on to the next subject. We are adults. We don't throw our frigging toys out of the cot and go home just because we have a fucking tiff with a stranger online! Still, Ill be sorry to see you go but that's your decision isn't it?
I can never understand why people get so angry online when in ordinary life they would not behave in such a manner. It's the online version of road rage. And white Saffas are the worst. We cannot stick together. We have egos the size of cathedrals and we are pedantic, petty and basically full of shit. Perhaps it's about time we stopped thinking of ourselves as special and accept that we are alone in our crap and no one is going to come to our rescue. We only have ourselves to count on and looking at how we conduct ourselves, amongst ourselves, I think we can safely say we are indeed fucked!
Dobes, “I can never understand why people get so angry online when in ordinary life they would not behave in such a manner.” You know my fucking name! THIS IS WHO I AM.
So you are busy. Then it wouldn’t be of any consequence if I told you to ask any of the people that know me whether I CONFRONT issues.
We are actually in agreement. Lol. Time for me to go.
And NO, WE ARE NOT FUCKED!!!!
Dobe: Re: I can never understand why people get so angry online when in ordinary life they would not behave in such a manner. It's the online version of road rage. And white Saffas are the worst. We cannot stick together. We have egos the size of cathedrals and we are pedantic, petty and basically full of shit. Perhaps it's about time we stopped thinking of ourselves as special and accept that we are alone in our crap and no one is going to come to our rescue. We only have ourselves to count on and looking at how we conduct ourselves, amongst ourselves, I think we can safely say we are indeed fucked! .
Well said! I thought it required repeating! [Humour: I'll be Westminster, if you be Cologne! ;-)]
@ Andrea, it's unreal isn't it? Why people get so worked up online is beyond me. I try and ignore stuff as long as I can and have only ever reacted when threatened (physically the last time) but people need to get over themselves. This is just a bliksems BLOG! Relax all of you.
@ FE, a final word. Whites in SA are their own worst enemy. You know it and I know it. A white conspiracy against the government could never succeed because whites cannot be trusted. Ask the Boeremag blokes. They were turned in by their own. Ask the AWB people. Same thing.
I know someone who worked in counter insurgency in the 80s and he said blacks terrs when caught were hard to crack but whites sang like freaking canaries the minute they were picked up. Couldn't wait to turn in their mates to save their skins. Pussies! That's the truth.
So forget fighting back militarily as an option. That leaves dealing with the black majority as a united force - puhleeze - not an option either. Look at us. We're so special...the heavens will open up and the angels will come and rescue us because nobody else will.
So if that doesn't say we're fucked then nothing will.
Dobes, the answer lies in a meritocracy. Now either you can pursue that, and stop bashing the whites, or you can go and sit on a self pitying little heap.
FishEagle:
1. I know more about psychology than all of you put together and multiply that by hundred.
Then you should be top right, on VI's Expansion of Knowledge/Ignorance graph; and know that:
Psychology is not an absolute science and is often referred to as a 'Social Science' or a 'Soft Science.' This is because it deals with human thoughts, feelings, and behavior, and as we are all aware, humans are not always predictable and reliable. Instead, we interact with our environment in ways that alter how we behave, how we think, and how we feel. Change one thing and the domino effect can change everything else. (Psych 101)
2. Objective, like psychology, is not an absolute science, but dependent on many factors. A predominant one, possibly being, the 'willingess and courage to doubt' your absolute beliefs, of your conclusions; and to constantly be willing to accept new evidence, with the goal of your working hypothesis conclusion, being based upon all information available to you.
3. The rape survivor factor is a factor like any other survival factor, and does not generally diminish, nor enhance your objectivity, although in certain circumstances, it may either enhance or diminish. Just depends on the circumstnaces of the particular debate or discussion.
4. I don't profess to understand all your comments. Where I have the time, or interest, I attempt to get a better understanding of little snippets here and there. I imagine understanding you in depth, as you mean what you say, would take years of dedicated intensive listening, as it would with anyone else on this blog. We are mostly two-legged ships navigating a dark ocean, flashing our own set of SOS and Mayday messages, and now and hoping someone can interpret our own ego-psyche-code that we ourselves have yet to unravel. That is one of the diffiuclties and the beauties in terms of the mystery of life and relationships.
5. Me thinks destiny may have placed a nice big 'Andrea obstacle' ahead of you? Perhaps?
6. If you think these guys have more than 5% understanding of the faith it has taken you (unless their wife, or sister intimately experienced a rape); THEN YOU NEED TO WAKE UP VERY FUCKING QUICKLY. Intellectually maybe, but experientially NO!!
7. I imagine you are not over your hurt; and I don't expect you to pretend to be over it; until the day you are over it; and its no longer mentioned cause you breezing along, and its truely forgotten and forgiven.
8. If psychology interests you, may I suggest you may find the following article on anger and forgiveness thought provoking: Radical Honesty about Anger: Radical Liberation from Anger and Radical Forgiveness as An Instrument of Creation (PDF)
9. Andrea and Crime Discussions: I'd be curious to hear your point of view FishEagle; and serious consider it.
10. Sharing stuff prior to having made sense of it: What makes you think about hte story I shared, that I have not made sense of any of it? Do I have more to learn about it? No argument there. But I am not driven by my anger and hate about the experience. Not suggesting you are. I don't know. You may wish to consider. And even if you are, nothing wrong with that. Its there for a reason.
11. About raising anyone's inner child (if that is what you meant, if not ignore). I agree.
12. If you sense denial in me, by all means: Bring it on lady; don't back down on my behalf!
13. My psychology experience: I mentored under Dr. Richard Korn, criminologist and psychologist; and I worked for, and Brad Blanton, Ph.D.; and learnt enough to know I know very little, but more than many others.
14. I agree about keeping your heart open.
15. You are not obliged to read my response to you.
16. The only person who can kill you mentally is you!
17. Again, if you want to leave: your choice. I've said what i thought about wanting you to stay, as others agreed.
18. No, allot of times we want to think that anything is about 'luck', when we no little about that particular subject. For example: Idiots will tell you that poker is about luck! A Poker Professional will tell you that winning at Poker is about mathematics and ego.
19. The factors here, are whether we want to be here, whether we hasve the courage and willingness to listen to others we disagree with, and to change our minds, when we are provided with enough evidence to justify changing our minds; or whether our ego's stand in our way!
Sorry Andrea, yadayadayada
FishEagle, yes the answer is meritocracy but that's not the solution in our lifetimes - if ever. Most people have not even heard of the expression or know the meaning.
What to do for now, right now, looking at the cards dealt to us, right now? We are a small minority shrinking by the day. Our best and brightest are leaving. We are being swamped with illegals, we are being overwhelmed, the problem seemingly insurmountable. What to do? Easy, U-N-I-T-E.
First find a commonality. That's your white skin. We don't need to break it down further than that. I think the past election has proven that blacks vote for blacks and are not ashamed to state it.
So we do the same. We UNITE, we stop fighting each other. Blacks don't do that because they are not busy pretending to be smarter, taller, richer, whatevah. They are black first, South African second, their ethnic tribe next, then religion then.. whatever. The main point is, they learnt in their "struggle" to put egos and petty bullshit aside and unite and they still remain largely united.
Whites have never been united. We allowed a fraction of our group to run our lives and decide our lives and look where it us. They (the top Nats) are sitting pretty, getting off scot free from persecution for their part in apartheid and we the rest, the sheeple, we live in fear for our lives.
What can change his? We can unite, what little of us there is left or who still care. If we can stop long enough to stop our crap and stop bickering amongst ourselves then maybe we could present a united front. We hold the economic might don't we? That's leverage. United we can demand changes for our benefit, just like blacks don't hesitate to demand things.
UNITE. Much smaller than "meritocracy" and seemingly harder to agree on.
Dobes, “FishEagle, yes the answer is meritocracy but that's not the solution in our lifetimes - if ever” All I can say get cracking. You just need to be willing to do the work. Or can’t you handle the thought of being in the leading pack?
I totally disagree that the commonality is our white skin. It is our humanity. To unite the whites does not mean that we have to break down something else, like fighting the black race. People only need to be inspired to be united. It’s either that or nothing at all.
"I totally disagree that the commonality is our white skin. It is our humanity." Tell that to the black savages that rape and kill white women, men and children. Often the last words they hear is hours of racial abuse before they are killed. White dog, white bitch, sound familiar? Please. Don't elevate what South Africa is to that level. When you can get blacks to agree that voting for the DA is about "humanity" and not about casting an anti-white vote then I will withdraw my view.
I'm not debating with you, I have posts to complete. Either stay or go. It's your decision.
Dobes, you are probably a good engineer. You also have a lot of humanity.
You, and the peopled like you, have been listening to the horror stories of South Africans: "the black savages that rape and kill white women, men and children. Often the last words they hear is hours of racial abuse before they are killed. White dog, white bitch"
VI, this song is appropriate again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3ORuIBjjBU.
Doberman - while we have had many disagreements I do not think that I have ever insulted you, at least not deliberately. If I may, I believe, according to what you have said, that we are on same page when it comes to the fact that most blacks are not criminals.
Fish Eagle and I may have more in common than I thought - a belief in common humanity. One can find savages among any group and they will always find an excuse for their behavior. Interestingly, the SAPS on its website contains a report on farm attacks from 2003. That report indicated that while political motivations did not cause farm attacks, racial hatred of whites often WAS a factor in the violence.
If you look at Sowetan there is an active email letter campaign there regarding Zille's comments. Looking through comments by blacks I have to say that perhaps some are more fixated on race than I thought. A also see somewhat of a double standard there as a little less than a year ago Julius Malema said equally insulting things about Thabo Mbeki. Yet no one called Malema a racist as I recall.
Despite the fact that our debate yesterday became very heated, I’m very glad we had it. It clarified some things for me, the issue being the reason why I have such an issue with Andrea.
On the greater scale of things it made me realize the value of the site because I think it truly does have an impact in SA of uniting people. I now realize that it is because of the humanity with which you are listening to all the stories and diligently sending out the message to the rest of the world. I have found so much value out of the site just on a personal level because the sense of companionship that I got there.
Andrea’s comments have been nothing like any of the other contributors because there is absolutely nothing human about her. Her history is obvious. I just ask that you please, please watch out that you don’t lose the humanity on the site. You can’t use her to help fight your battles for you because you are getting bombarded by so much crap from people.
I also want to explain to you about something on a personal level. The need arises from the fact that you accused me of not confronting or dealing with my issues.
Andrea is an incredibly manipulative person and she gets some sick perverted pleasure from other people’s pain. It is such a common thing in people that have not coped very well having gone through the things that she’s gone through. I have compassion for her mother’s brutal murder. I know that the damage of such an incident has very wide repercussions for the poor people that are left behind to deal with the horror of their reality.
I meant it that she has the power to drive a knife through my heart but maybe not the sense that most people understood it. I represent the ghost of her mother and it would actually be a good thing if she could metaphorically ‘kill’ it. Although at this stage she can’t distinguish between the real me and the ghost. Please don’t think I’m being melodramatic. For my peace of mind, will you protect my identity from her?
Besides, I am taking responsibility for sharing my personal information to strangers on the internet and doing the damage control.
I have no power to protect myself against her manipulation. The devil doesn’t exist, right? That is the vice that I will be carrying around with me till the day I die because of my life experiences. She could take a hot iron and press it against my body and it would be less painful. The only way that I can stay in the company of such a person is if somebody else could protect me. But that’s a totally unrealistic expectation given the severity of my ‘vice.’ Most people wouldn’t even have a clue how to protect me. It is only sensible for me to avoid having any run ins with her.
Not everybody is like Andrea. I’ve discussed my whole life story with my family, some of my friends and even some work colleagues. Everything, including my abuse and rape! I did not come onto the internet to discuss my rape and to find a pressure release. I didn’t need to. I needed a pressure release for my racism only.
If it is ok I’ll still be visiting the site. But I also need to step back a bit.
Cheerio.
Hello FishEagle, let me start by saying that I apologise if I upset you in any way. I know we both got heated and said things we regret. I suppose that is the nature of arguing? ;o) As for your identity, and anyone else's, we will NEVER reveal anything to anyone, not even between contributors. That isn't because we don't like or trust each other but the internet while it has its merits also has a dark side. Trust me, your identity is safe.
As for letting Andrea or anyone affect you, I learnt very early in my life living with an exceptionally abusive father who by today's standards would have been jailed, to never let anyone intimidate or dominate me. His actions and words had no value other than what I was prepared to place on them. Words are just words - they need YOU to apply a value to them, be it pain or pleasure. You decide their effect on you. You would know being more knowledgeable in these matters. Step back, take a deep breath and visit when you feel ready.
@FishEagle. Glad to know you will still be visiting us. Maybe I haven't awakened to your reality, but I don't see what you have against Andrea. If anything I see somebody that is reaching out, trying to connect with you. I don't see Andrea as being malicious. Perhaps in time you will begin to see her in a similar light. No point in going on and on, so I will leave it there.
Thanks Dobes. I would also like to apologize.
Err..VI, let’s just leave it at that. You know how I feel and vice versa. We’ll just have to work around it. B.t.w. Can I get some financial advice? Will comment under your latest post at a later stage.
Welcome back FishEagle!
The beauty of the internet is that we can remain at least semi-anonymous in order to vent frustrations that we would otherwise have to be more diplomatic about.
That's why I can't understand people (nobody specific) who go on about "truth" and "honesty" and fail to understand the wider truth that is more important.
It is the "does my arse look big in this?" dilemma!
Anyone who has been asked that question knows the answer is never yes even when it is.
Anyway, the point is, disclosure is not always in everyone's interest, and I would hope we have all got enough respect for each other at this stage to avoid slanging matches.
I know I have backed out of arguments on a few occasions to keep the peace, and some people will do best to avoid other people, or at least to avoid ad hominem attacks and keep things that one step away from the personal.
Unity, people.
FishEagle:
1. Thanks for a valuable blogging lesson learnt on my part.
2. ForTheRecord: My mother was not murdered, and is accordingly not dead, but very much alive; and accordingly anything but a ghost (except of course in your mind).
3. Good Luck.
@Black Coffee
black people are fixated on race, as much as anyone else. Why wouldn't they be? look at the xenophobic violence in SA last year, I saw it first hand. The Congolese hate the Rwandans (Hutus and Tutsis), the South Africans hate the Nigerians. Sad, but true.
On a slightly different note, I was greatly insulted by an educated black South African just this week - he referred to the Irish as "paddies". True!
Perhaps you may enlighten me as unfortunately I do not know that much about Irish culture and history. What exactly is a "paddy"? Is it an insult to Irish on the level of calling a black American - "nigger"?
@BC
to be honest, it's not quite as bad. It's more disrespectful than racist, more on a par with frog or kraut. But in context it was meant in a denigrating way.
Viking, I hope you don't really think my ass looks big in this! Lol
This discussion made me very aware of the fact that I still have unresolved issues with my mother. I want to apologize for not having enough faith in you to ‘see the light’ when it comes to a woman’s manipulation.
FishEagle (7:27): Not sure who your comment is addressed to.
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