And all these multifacted changes were imposed on everyone's individual lives by a handful of people in an ornate boardroom in Washington, DC, whose names few investment professionals even knew, much less the general public.
The remarkable thing was that everyone accepted the entire process, seemingly as normal as physical laws of nature, despite the fact that it was really as ethereal as a rainbow. The money did not physically exist. Even 'real' money was not specially made paper printed with black ink on the front and green on the back. What backed the money was not gold or something of intrinsic value, but rather the collective belief that money had value because it had to have such value.
Thus it was that the monetary system of the United States and every other country in the world was entirely an exercise in psychology, a thing of the mind, and as a result, so was every other aspect of the American economy. If money was simply a matter of communal faith, then so was everything else....
Holders of that faith included the governors of the Fed, because they truly understood it all -- or thought that they did. Individually they might joke that nobody really understood how it all worked, any more than any of them could explain the nature of God, but like theologians constantly trying to determine and communicate the nature of a deity, it was their job to keep things moving, to make the belief-structure real and tangible, never quite acknowledging that it all rested on nothing even as real as the paper currency they carried with them for the times when the use of a plastic credit card was inconvenient.
They were trusted, in the distant way that people trusted their clergy, to maintain the structure on which worldly faith always depended, proclaiming the reality of something that could not be seen, an edifice whose physical manifestations were found only in buildings of stone and the sober looks of those who worked there. And, they told themselves, it all worked. Didn't it?
-- Debt of Honour, by Tom Clancy
Mitigation and Preparation for Peak Oil
As far as I am aware, virtually every Peak Oil Dr. Doom has warned that Peak Oil would result in a crash of the world economy. Cheap Fossil Fuels and Debt Based Fiat Currency Economies are Intimately Linked.
Their Economic Relocalisation Strategic Advice, among others:
- Relocate: Factors to consider: Arable land, Moderate climate, where you can grow your own food, Friendly community.
- Financially: Get out of Debt; Get Rid of Credit Cards, or use them as Monthly Debit Cards, paid off in full.
- Relocalise your Lifestyle Aim: Least Dependent on far-flung fossil fuel transportation and distribution networks.
- Strengthen your body Physically and with Organic Food: Secede from Fossil Fuel Ponzi Health Care System
- Solidify Skills and/or Social Networks
- Relocalize Money/Change the Way Money Works: Participate in Local Currencies
- Shop Locally wherever Possible: Secede from Addiction to the MultiNational Debt Slavery Tape Worm Economy
- Support Local Farming: Buy Local, Get involved in a Local Farmers Market; or Start Your own Home or Community Vegetable Garden.
All of the above actions, are actions whereby you are directly or indirectly Financially Seceding from the Financial Tape Worm Debt Slavery Economy. Baby Steps to Financial Secession.
Secede and Relocalise your Finances: Local Currency Ideas
In A New Kind of Money, Peak Oil Dr. Doomer Julian Darley warned in 2006 (excerpts):
The decline in the availability of cheap energy is likely to be accompanied by an equally ominous possibility of world financial meltdown. That we are facing both of these threats now is not an accident: energy and financial stability are intimately linked. I believe the solutions for dealing with these twinned threats are equally linked. To build an environmentally sustainable, monetarily stable world, we need to create an economy in which locally produced energy provides the backing for local currencies.
And here's the link to money: we have made the same limitless assumption about money, that the world monetary supply could grow without end as well. In both cases, we assumed that the growth in energy-use and in money supply was an unmitigated good.
There have been a growing number of voices warning us that both of these assumptions were wrong, that the notion of unchecked growth was leading us toward environmental and financial meltdowns. And while we have been making some progress in understanding the energy problem, there is virtually no mention of the role of money.
I admit that thinking clearly about money can be difficult. Money has been around far longer than the oil age, the industrial era, and may even pre-date civilization itself. But though we may take money for granted, it is neither simple nor solid nor reliable -- far from it. Money is a complex and fragile construction, and as history has shown over and over again, money can become worthless almost overnight. In the long run, money has proven very difficult to manage -- it's a tricky and strange invention.
The original driving force behind money was our need for specialization as we grew from hunter-gatherer societies to settlements of a few thousand, and now cities of millions. Money helped us to increase our carrying capacity -- the number of humans a given area will support at a certain level of technology -- but it has also helped us to become largely disconnected from the real material world.
Today's global monetary system is based on currencies controlled by national banks, and the global trading system is mainly based on one of those currencies: the US dollar. This system leaves communities and individuals vulnerable to the fluctuations of the global market.
Money can be "backed" by all kinds of physical substances, like precious metals. Or money can be "fiat" ("let it be made") like most national currencies today, backed by nothing except faith and confidence -- or sometimes just confidence tricks.
Unlike a backed currency, a fiat currency can at least in theory quite literally expand for ever. There is no direct link to material reality to impose limits, only economic theory, which is devoted to eternal growth and doesn't like to deal with limits -- or reality -- at all. An unlimited currency along with unlimited growth and (so far) unlimited energy has allowed us to do almost unlimited damage to the planet. However, as the availability of cheap, abundant energy declines, energy will soon become the dominant partner in the relationship with money, and money's true dependence on energy will finally become apparent for all to see.
As energy becomes increasingly expensive and scarce, the colossal size and scale of our infrastructure, which has characterized the rise of industrialism, will selectively crumble and become unserviceable. It is only the energy subsidy from hitherto ever-increasing use of cheap fossil fuels that has allowed our current grandiosity. If this argument is correct, national currency reform will become an oxymoron. It will become apparent that local currencies must be created, currencies based on the resources of the locale -- be they abundant or austere.
Communities can further insulate themselves by de-monetizing as many goods and services as possible and try to produce as much of their vital needs as locally as possible, especially food (from local farms and processors) and renewable energy.
Demonetizing means taking a product or service out of the market so that it does not need a monetary value. Hence the need either to stop using a product or to produce it yourself.
When you take a potato from your garden, if you are fortunate enough to have one, you don't pay yourself a dollar for the privilege -- you just clean it, cook it, and eat it. Demonetizing can also be done via barter, and this is in fact quite common in business, including in the industrialized world. But demonetizing flies in the face of globalization and the Industrial Revolution.
Communities that create such local or regional currencies will have a much better chance both of riding out the coming energy decline and of being buffered from any monetary or economic collapse that may happen for whatever reason. The sooner such systems are created, the more ready that region will be to withstand shocks and to avoid the terrible unemployment which severe monetary instability invariably brings.
There are predominantly two different kinds of Local Currencies.
ONE: SCRIP:
Scrip is the Local Paper Currencies that thousands of Communities created as their Local Currencies, to cope during the Great Depression.
This is a BBC clip, covering recently created Berkshares Scrip, in Great Barrington, MA.
Other well known Scrips are Ithaca Hours, from Ithaca New York. Who knows what Orania's local currency is called?
Scrip Local Currencies are usually used by anyone in the community who will accept them as payment for labour or services rendered; or businesses that accept them for payment for particular locally produced goods. The administration of the Local Currency is determined by the people in that community, who use it and participate in electing whomever they want to be in charge of it.
Their benefits: They enable the trading of local services and goods that a scarce financial instrument may restrict.
TWO: ELECTRONIC BARTER:
These are generally internet or electronically based Communities, such as LETS (Local Electronic Trading System), or CES (Community Exchange System). You join a particular Local CES, and then you can trade with others who belong to the same system. Your ‘trades’ of labour or service provided are ‘banked’ into the CES bank, and you can then purchase other services you need, from others who offer such services within the system. The CES System call their Trades’ ‘Talents’. So you charge, for example, T80 for an oil change.
This is how a CES Trade works (after you have registered and become a member of the CES Community:
Requirement: Your car needs an oil change.
Step 1: You either look through the Offerings List or do a search to see if anyone is offering oil changes or car maintenance. Someone is offering oil changes for T80 but you must bring your own oil and oil filter.
Step 2: In the Offerings List you click on the person's name to obtain contact details. You phone the person (the 'seller') and agree on a time and place for the oil change.
Step 3: The oil change takes place and then you (the 'buyer') fill in a Trading Slip (obtainable from the site), giving the date, your name, your account number, the amount (T80) and your signature. You fill in the same details on the counterfoil and get the seller to sign it. The counterfoil is then separated from the slip and you hand the main part to the seller, keeping the counterfoil for yourself. For the seller your Trading Slip represents your payment and your acknowledgement of the service or goods delivered; for you the counterfoil is your record of payment.
Step 4: You leave, satisfied that your car has fresh oil. The seller then goes to a computer and enters the details of the trade into the transaction form of his or her CES 'bank account'. This becomes a credit for the seller and a debit for you. You are now obliged to provide goods and services to the community worth T80.
Community Exchange Services currently exist for the Local Communities, of among others: Bredasdorp, Capetown, East London, Garden Route, Grahamstown, Greyton, Helderberg, Johannesburg, Klein Karoo, Namaqualand, Pietermaritzburg, Port Elizabeth, Pretoria, Richards Bay, Stellenbosh, etc.
To join any of these, or to submit a registration to start a CES in your Community, contact CES.
********
The Problems with Conventional Money
It is partisan
Money as we know it is not a neutral service provided by the government. Our money supply is created by private financial institutions on a for-profit basis. This money system is designed to benefit those who provide it, not those who use it.
It is based on debt
Money is created when banks grant loans. Thus for every unit created there is one unit of debt.
We are encouraged to think of it as a 'thing'
Money is essentially information and has no physical existence yet banks encourage us to think of it as a 'thing' so that they can 'lend' it to us and thereby make a profit by charging interest. 'Thing' money also has to be created, distributed and controlled so that there is not too much of it. It can also be stolen, lost, bought, sold and counterfeited, with serious consequences for everyone.
It is permanently scarce
The money to pay the interest on debt-money is never created. There is therefore a permanent shortfall of money to pay back both the principal and the interest.
It causes cancerous growth
Banks continuously need to create more money than is required to pay back their loans so that borrowers can pay back the interest on those loans. This is the source of the growth imperative of our economics. There must be a continual expansion of bank credit or else the economy goes into recession. Systemic growth leads to the environmental problems we now all face.
Its value is based on its shortage
The shortfall of money keeps it valuable. There only needs to be enough of it to buy back the goods and services available. This has nothing to do with the monetary requirements of people. Those who have none are not seen by the market and so are marginalised.
It is expensive
Every unit of conventional money is based on a unit of debt. This debt has to be paid back with interest, and the interest on the interest is compounding. Interest is built into the prices of everything we buy, resulting in higher consumer prices.
It redistributes wealth from the poor to the wealthy
Usury is the tool used by the wealthy to suck wealth from the poor and middle classes to the moneyed class. Parasitism and class antagonisms are the result of this.
It promotes dishonesty and corruption
You can get it without delivering anything of value (e.g. speculation, interest, gambling etc.) so people concentrate on 'making money' rather than producing/delivering anything of real value. It is usually far easier to get money through dishonest means than by honest work. When you have no money you have no choice but to try and get it dishonestly
It leaks away from where it is created
Conventional money knows no bounds and loyalty. It always leaks away to the 'money centres' (financial centres, big businesses, etc.)
It destroys local economies
Goods produced cheaper elsewhere replace locally produced goods. This creates a local shortage of money and reduces the market for local sellers. This also results in the irrational transportation of goods all over the world, consuming precious fossil fuels and creating pollution.
It destroys community
Dependence on money means we no longer need our neighbours. We can get everything from anonymous strangers in return for money. We have no obligation to anyone when the bills are paid. Every trade is a complete and closed action: you provide me with something and I give you money. End of story. No one does us any favours and we need do no favours to anyone.
It fosters competitiveness
The shortage of money means we all have to fight for a share of an amount that is too small to go around. The need to repay interest means that we have to eat others to prevent ourselves from going under.
It creates poverty
While it makes some super rich, it makes most people poor. Poverty is caused by a lack of money (not by a lack of jobs). Usury and the need to keep money scarce ensure that money constantly moves to those who already have money.
It causes social and cultural degradation
The elimination of local opportunities to exchange and relate to one another focuses attention on ways of getting money outside the community. Communities fall apart as they become indebted to entities outside their communities.
******
To conclude: Think about it. Participating in a Local CES Currency System is going to benefit you, your family, your community; and not only that: You will be making a Financial Statement of Secession. You will be financially voting for Secession!
Is the ANC going to be getting any VAT or tax benefits on your labour, from labour that you exchange via a CES?
You will be Financially Training Daily, for the Political Secession Marathon!
Sources: Alternet :: Community Exchange System :: CES: Join: ZA
Related:
49 Opinion(s):
Orania: It is called the "Ora"
HODD: Thanks! How many Ora's do I owe you for your Information Services provided? ;-)
The Ora is still linked to the ZAR so that does not help.
Brilliant post.
Anon: The Ora is still linked to the ZAR.
Few thoughts:
I imagine they did so for psychological convenience terms initially. Money is a very psychological thing, and allot of people need to take baby steps, with 'change'. So to get people used to the idea, and using it, and to avoid too much confusion. So its linked to ZAR, cause that way new people find it easier to undertsand the concept.
In terms of what to do, about delinking it from the Rand, should the Rand go over a cliff. Taht would require a good analysis of options available, strengths and weaknesses, etc.
One benefit though of local currencies, even if they are linked to the Rand: The Ora stays local, it continues to circulate locally. With the Rand, if you go to Pick and Pay and pay in Local Currency, they have got to use it, to buy from local farmers. If you use Rands, those Rands, go right to their Head Office, which can be used for ANC bribes et al.
RANDS do not encourage your businesses to BUY LOCAL.
Local currencies ENCOURAGE YOU TO BUY LOCAL. To keep the money circulating locally, instead of being CENTRALIZED. Centralized money systems are a function of Socialist Centralisation. The Big Brotehr Party Members think the know best how money should be allocated (often to their own pet projects)..
Dachshund: Glad you found it interesting, or useful, or whatever! ;-)
Andrea, thank goodness you answered re. "the Ora is linked to the Rand so..." because such statements just blow my mind!
Doesn't have to be a semi-autonomous state by the way. I live in the UK and a village not far from us on the south coast has its own currency. Worth exactly the same as the pound but called something different, the local currency can be used ONLY in local businesses and local businesses will give you ONLY the local currency as change...
it is the only village I know of in Sussex or Hampshire where not one single business has gone under in the last twelve months!
Local is Lekker!
Now if only we could get local governments run by local people, the whole world would come right again! But then those so used to centralising the wealth wouldn't be happy and they'd have to start another world war!
Anon: Local Currency? ==> only village.. in Sussex/Hampshire where not one single business has gone under in the last twelve months!
Me thinks -- perhaps -- local currency had ALLOT to do with that BUSINESS REALITY! When you can pay your rent, your staff, et al; and buy local products, with a local currency, that is not dissapearing into ANC Mad Bob's Offshore banking accounts, nor buying cheap T-shirts from China! You may not be making a fortune, but you ain't goin bankrupt! ;-)
Thanks for that info!
Jct: Of course, starting your own currency system frees you from the exponential debt of using their money system. Best of all, when the local currency is pegged to the Time Standard of Money (how many dollars/hour child labor) Hours earned locally can be intertraded with other timebanks globally!
In 1999, I paid for 39/40 nights in Europe with an IOU for a night back in Canada worth 5 Hours.
U.N. Millennium Declaration UNILETS Resolution C6 to governments is for a time-based currency to restructure the global financial architecture.
See my banking systems engineering analysis at http://youtube.com/kingofthepaupers
King of the Paupers: Question: So hypothetically, if you start a local currency pegged to the National Currency; what do you imagine would be the factors to consider in unpegging it from 'RANDS' and repegging it to a Time Based Currency System?
maybe I've misunderstood this, but all currency is "fides" currency is it not? and the more people that use (or trust) it, the more stable and strong it is..
And it seems to me that local currencies etc would more likely CAUSE a currency crisis than resuly from it.
I find the "problems with conventional money" part very misleading.
Viking: What do you mean by:
"but all currency is "fides" currency is it not?".
As for strength and stability:
My working assumption: Two interrelated factors:
Strength Perception:
Yes the currency is somewhat stable, depending on the number of people who perceive it as such.
Intrinsic Value of Currency:
A currency that has intrinsic value, in addition to 'perception value' is stronger, and mroe stable.
For example a commodity that is finite. Like Gold.
A currency that is pegged to a gold standard (or any finite basket of commodities standard) cannot be inflated at the will of the 'Central Bank'. They cannot just print more and more money as they wish. They can only print as much money as they have in gold reserves.
Can sound money give you financial security? There is something very comforting in knowing that what you earn today will retain its purchasing power in the years to come. Indeed, the same silver dime that bought a loaf of bread in the 1960’s can still buy a loaf of bread with its precious metal content - which is worth about $1.00 today. An ounce of gold has always been about evenly exchangeable for a finely tailored men’s suit, which these days is roughly $800. And in these days of fluctuating gas prices, when priced in gold, oil has been stable. Meanwhile, since the creation of the Federal Reserve, the fiat dollar has lost 94 percent of its purchasing power. The erosion of purchasing power rapidly accelerated when it was completely uncoupled from gold in 1971.
-- Ron Paul, In Goverment We Trust.
Local Currencies can cause a currency crisis, but generally unless extremely badly managed, do so less than national currencies.
Plausibly, because it is much easier for local people upset about mismanagement to effect change of the relevant officials mismanageing their currency; than it is for citizens to effect change at the national level, with those mismanaging their currency.
It also depends on what kind of 'currency crisis' you mean.
I cannot read your mind, so have not the faintest fucking clue, what you find misleading about 'problems with conventional money'.
Viking: Just for you 'Buthead'! ;-): Currency Strength and Stability: Intrinsic Value Currency.
Hi Andrea
as you say, currency has no intrinsic value, unless it is backed up by precious metals.But we don't use the gold standard anymore, for a lot of reasons - even gold has no intrinsic value unless people want it. Thomas More raised the point in Utopia about a society where gold had no inherent value.
The value of gold can be inflated and deflated, depending on what you compare it to. Prices rose 400% in imperial Spain due to the amount of gold pouring in from the Americas. It made them poorer, not richer.
It is interesting from a philosophical view to compare an ounce of gold to the price of a tailored suit. But compare say to the difference in cost between lighting a dark room, say between 200 years ago and now. The ability to achieve this has been dramatically reduced.
Anyway, the point is, nothing really has intrinsic value, although a Marxist might say that labour does! Also, is an hour of my time worth the same as yours? What if I am a surgeon and you are a shoe polisher?
hmmm.
I find the list headed "problems with conventional money" misleading because there is a list of 15 or so reasons why money is bad, yet these reasons, while valid, can apply to everything. For example, "Its value is based on its shortage" is misleading only in that everything's value is based on its supply, not just money. And secondly the phrase "Usury is the tool used by the wealthy to suck wealth from the poor and middle classes to the moneyed class. Parasitism and class antagonisms are the result of this." uses ideologically loaded language, and usury is the excessive charging of interest, not interest per se.
I just think we are coming from very difference theories of economics. Which is good because I really enjoyed this article.
I said 'fiat currency' has no intrinsic value.
On Gold I am with Ron Paul, as per the link I provided. Are you responding to the entire article, or just the quote I provided above, in terms of your response?
Of course Gold has no intrinsic value unless people want it! How about attempting to create a world where nobody wants GOLD! May I wish you A FUCKING LOT OF LUCK!! Secession will be a walk in the fucking park with a bunch of old tupperwear tea ladies, compared to convincing the world to not give gold any intrinsic value.
In IMperial Spain, the world had not yet reached 'Peak Gold'. If you are of hte opinion there are many places on the planet with huge gold mines, that lie undiscovered, your theory of huge new amounts of gold would of course affect gold. Furthermore in that time, the information system meant their percpetion of the quantity of gold in the world, was based upon what was in their local area, hence thier perception of its value. We live in a different world.
If you want to hold a religious/philosophical conversation of 'nothing is of real intrinsic value' -- yes, at a certain level of consciousness (that perhaps 2% of the population are capable of, that is A TRUE STATEMENT)... but may I suggest you attempt to convince one of those in the 98% BELIEVERS IN INTRINSIC VALUES.. that you are correct! GOOD LUCK!
Also, is an hour of my time worth the same as yours? What if I am a surgeon and you are a shoe polisher? hmmm.
Not sure what point you are trying to make. A shoe polisher would value his time value as T40, and a surgeon as T70, for example.
"Usury is the tool used by the wealthy to suck wealth from the poor and middle classes to the moneyed class. Parasitism and class antagonisms are the result of this." uses ideologically loaded language, and usury is the excessive charging of interest, not interest per se.
Usury is a result of COMPOUND INTEREST. Namely the exponential increase of interest. I don't get hung up on the ideologically loaded language. I find it stands in my way of hearing what I attempt they are trying to say; some of which I agree with, although if I said it, I'd drop the ideologically loaded language. But I don't get hung up on it. It was shared as a food for thought to debate if people wanted to.
Very seldom are people encourage dot ask themselves what money is, what it does, why it works as it does, could itwork differently, etc.
Economics: I come from the Austrian School: Von Mises, Rothbard, Ron Pual, et al.
Glad you enjoyed it! Thanks.
hi Andrea
sorry, I couldn't tell what parts were your own words, and what were cited by you, so I won't debate about language.
"Not sure what point you are trying to make. A shoe polisher would value his time value as T40, and a surgeon as T70, for example."
I think this is the point I was trying to make re:Marxist economics.
A psychiatrist( I don't know any surgeons!) charges R1,000 per hour, and someone who shines shoes probably makes 10. This is 100 times greater, rather than 1.75 times as per your example. This is a reflection of the many years of education it requires to train one. I am not aware that anyone has come up with a formule for figuring out the hows and why's, but we just refer to it as market forces!
The other problem with a gold standard is just the one you hinted at - not just undiscovered quantities, but the the fact that vast mineral resources are often located in countries you really wouldn't want to see get rich - like Iraq! Places like the Congo are immensely wealth in these terms and most European countries aren't..
Viking: The dark green was my own words, the black is not.
"Not sure what point you are trying to make. A shoe polisher would value his time value as T40, and a surgeon as T70, for example."
Market forces are as equally applicable to local currencies, as national. If a shoe polisher values his time, at the same as a neurosurgeon, where he advertises his services, he is unlikely to get many takers!
I dont get your point, in terms of the focus of the article.
Large Undiscovered quantities of gold: YEAH RIGHT! On Jupiter or Saturn maybe!
If you are happy with Fiat Currencies, and the financial markets and Debt Based Delusional 'Economic Growth' fantasies.. they are currently run... thats fine Viking... Then you must take their consequences, the impending financial depression like a man, and not complain...
But you cannot have it both ways.. unless you want to be Marie Antoinette.. and in that case, I am banging my head against a Black Coffee wall...
huh?
who is complaining exactly??
I didn't realise my manhood was on the line in a discussion about economics.
Yes, I am happy with the current currency system.
I am less happy about currency speculators..
But once again, do kindly point out where I am complaining about the impending depression?
In any case, one can complain about a system while fully endorsing it - take democracy for example - and we are only human!
Viking: Not sure where your manhood came in. Maybe an interpretation, different to what I meant.
If you ain't complaining aobut current system. No problem. Didn't say you were, didn't know. If you consider current fiat currency system good. Fine. I disagree. I am happy to agree to disagree. Appears you disagree with certain aspects of the system (speculators), but you don't have a problem with the exponential fiat currency printing of money, based on the whims of politicians and investment bankers, and its consequences of the devaluation of currencies, due to inflation (as a result of printing money from nothing, based on nothing, but poitical whims).
I don't endorse the system of democracy at all. My preference has always been, and remains for a Republic. My criticism of a democracy accordingly includes the suggestion that there is -- in my view -- an alternative, a better option; not simply complaining without offering any options for how what I am complaining about can be improved.
"Viking: Not sure where your manhood came in"
...that would be the part where you said "..like a man, and not complain"!
money isn't printed from nothing, it is a promise, and one that must be delivered upon. Sure, a country can bankrupt itself by printing too much, but as Vanilla Ice points out in your more recent article, central banks generally don't. People are smart, and won't accept the same price for something when they know inflation is afoot - that's why inflation gets out of control. If the money is bad, people want more of it.
I am happy with the system because it is a standard, and a widely accepted one.
All the money I deal with on a daily basis is counted on an opportunity cost basis. I don't care what a Rand is intrinsically worth. I know that If I have R100, I know what I can do with it. I can go to Steers and have change left over, or I can go to the movies. Most people live like that. Money is a tool, and no matter what it's worth, the opportunity cost is usually the same.
I am also happy to disagree.
And I do have a problem with printing money "on the whims" of politicians - which is why I want central banks to be independent. Countries that do this, like Mad Bob Mugabe's Zim, have other problems, political not economic.
Viking: money isn't printed from nothing, it is a promise, and one that must be delivered upon. Read other article on Sound Money, and the theory of 'promises' and how to avoid promises, with fiat currencies; is my response.
People are smart, and won't accept the same price for something when they know inflation is afoot - that's why inflation gets out of control.
Sorry that was hilarious... I think people are dumber than two planks and do what the herd does. Inflation is afoot, and has been for a long time, so 'smart people' invented 'credit default swaps'... and ingenious reasons for why it is not... The dollar has lost 94% of its value, according to Paul and you don't think that inflation is afoot?
Then you don't agree much with Austrian School of Economics Libertarians. And thats okay. I just thought you were saying you are a libertarian, butmaybe you mean in other ways.
Central banks generally don't! That is certainly a 'perception management idea' or 'propaganda' idea that those who faviour the current system would want those who disagree to believe.
If central banks generally don't, then perhaps these are not on your raedaing list:
MR: Which, of course, is already underway, which leads to this process that is known, conventionally speaking, as stagflation--stagnate economic growth coupled with inflation. And we have several horribly disingenuous moves by the U.S. Government, two of which, are actually hiding how much impact--actually three events. One is in the consumer price index, which they use for fundamental measure of inflation. They have removed the cost of food and gasoline, from the consumer price index, to convince people that there's no inflation. The second move was, that in March, the Federal Reserve stopped publishing data on the M3 money supply, which is probably the best measure of the amount of currency in circulation. So, we have no way of knowing how fast the printing presses are turning, and these are metaphorical printing presses, because most of the currency created now is created digitally. But, we have no way of knowing how much cash the Fed is creating, so, they're hiding inflation that way. The third thing that has been done recently, which was the prime mover for From The Wilderness' Fourth Ruppert Economic Alert, which we published yesterday, June 14th; is the fact that the President by means of a very almost overlooked memo--administrative memo--if you will, as granted to John Negroponte, the National Director of Intelligence, the authority to exempt any corporation doing national security contract work with the U.S. Government from all SEC recording requirements.
Michael Rupperts Economic Forecast.
Viking (2):
Aghast, I raise a shaky index finger to direct your attention to Mr. Irwin’s appropriate use of the adjectives “massive”, “flood” and “additional” to describe the sudden scary appearance of “$1.2 trillion” in promised expansion of the money supply by the Federal Reserve, which is so scary that this is where Mr. Irwin lost valuable Mogambo Stylistic Points (MSP) when he forgot to extend “$1.2 trillion” into a phrase that would reflect the preceding phrases.
So, according to the Mogambo Big Book Of Economic Editorial Style (MBBOES), It should have read (in light of preceding adjectives “massive”, “flood” and “additional”), “$1.2 trillion, which is a freaking unbelievable orgy of monumentally irresponsible monetary and fiscal insanity that not only makes you pee in your pants in terror of the inflation in consumer prices that will inevitably follow such enormous expansion of the money supply, but is even more terrifyingly that this same deficit-spending lunacy is forecasted far, far into the future, too, making the total situation of such a horrific magnitude that you can be fully justified in screaming your brains out in horror and outrage, being, as you are, 100 percent sure that it will destroy us completely by the simple expedient of destroying the purchasing power of existing dollars by creating too many new dollars!”.
Gasoline on the Money Supply Fire.
The irony and confusion is that the Fed is now pumping up the money supply... the dollar has been flooding the world for many years...savings rates in the United States have dipped lower and lower -- to the point where they're now negative...the average family is said to be unable to scrape together $1,000 in cash...people have a higher percentage of their assets in the stock market...at the highest prices in history... twice as high, in GDP terms, as preceded the `29 crash...
...and still the price of gold, in real and nominal terms...is far below where it was 20 years ago! .
Says Marc Faber, "The sum total of credit instruments outstanding globally is growing by about 10% per year. Thus, it doubles in size every seven years...The global economy, however, expands by just about 3% per year...This sorry condition [uncontrolled credit expansion] will lead either to far higher inflation rates or to massive defaults. Consequently, gold will provide the only sound currency." .
It will be a sad day for many people when the bubble pops. But it may be a happy day for those people holding gold. Where might the price go? Doug Casey offered some guesses in his recent issue. Dividing the U.S. gold supply by the money supply -- M1 -- he figured the price of gold should be $4,214 an ounce. Dividing the accumulated U.S. foreign trade deficit by U.S. gold holdings produces a similar number...about $4,000 per ounce.
A World of Sin & Sorrow.
Viking (3):
I thought that I had a pretty good handle on how much “stimulus” money Congress and the Fed have spent so far, ranging, as it does, in the zillions of dollars… So I was taken aback when Addison Wiggin of Agora Financial wrote, “$7.2 trillion is a lot of money. That’s what D.C. has poured into ‘our’ bailout so far.” Wow!.
Trying to keep from peeing my pants in horror, I think to myself, “Hell yeah, that’s a lot of money… Because it is roughly half of everything this country makes in a year! Half of American GDP!” which, unfortunately, ended in “P”, which sounds like “pee”, which was just enough of a subliminal suggestion that… Well, never mind.
But if creating that much money is not enough to scare the piss out of you, too, then consider it just a Mogambo Warm-Up Test (MWUT) to see if your heart is strong enough to take the news behind the New York Post headline “The Fed’s Futile Move” – an article by Dick Morris and Eileen McGann, who report, “the money supply has already expanded by 271 percent in the past five months”! Gaaahhhh! That comes out to a money supply expanding by 650% in a year!.....
No, no, my darling Junior Mogambo Rangers (JMRs); all that money, and yet still more money from other countries and other sources, will be with us for the rest of our lives, and the inflation in the money supply will show up as higher and higher inflation in consumer prices, which is what will cause rioting when the people realize that they are bankrupted and starving to death because they did not buy gold, silver and oil when their own stupid government started acting irresponsibly, which is, I am sure you will agree, bad news.
Zombie Economy Feeds on New Money and Credit.
Anyway... those are a few.. that explain (quickly) my view on the issue.
As for Central Banks being independent.... more on that tomorrow... ;-)
@Andrea. You are starting to appear like a hysterical fringe fanatic. Shoving volumes of text down my throat doesn't strengthen your argument and suddenly make me see the light. How did you arrive at the notion that inflation is bad? Viking did not suggest that people will perpetaully accept a depreciating currency. I read it that people are aware of the value of their currency, and will seek a store of value that hedges against any depreciation (which is a utilitarian view). By the way credit default swaps have nothing to do with inflation, nor do derivatives. These are instruments that are designed to mitigate risk, but I think your argument is that in a new world order there would be no financial risk. Sorry, but risk (as measured by volatile markets) is what leads to return and I can demonstrate this to you.
@Andrea
why is that funny?
People are not that dumb when it comes to money. Even in medieval times - hardly an enlightened period- people checked the metal in their coins to see if it was worth what it said it was; and if it wasn't, they demanded more.
Vanilla: 'hysterical fringe fanatic'.... hmmm okay. if you say so. ;-).. Is that how you win arguments? If so, okay...
Shoving vollumes down your throat.... I was responding to Viking, so not sure why you took it so personal. Interesting interpretation. Sorry, I thought I'd give Viking reasons -- you know like a bit of reading, so show I wasn't sucking my thumb.. So, if a person provides you with reading material, to share a perspective, then you consider them a freaking fanatic, shoving volumes down your throat? Wow..
Not sure what light you saw.
Your question: How did you arrive at the notion that inflation is bad? appears to imply that you think inflation is good? If that is your view, then I guess we disagree. As I said, I ain't got a problem to agree to dissagree.
Viking did not suggest that people will perpetaully accept a depreciating currency.
He may not have said so... I think that most of them will. I think they may complain, but htey won't do much about it, they will whine and complain. I find Vikings view that people won't interesting, and dont agree.
I get that you think people are aware of the value of hteir currency; and I don't. I think they are pretty much bullshitted, by political and finacnial elite bullshit artists; who manipulate 'money supply' numbers and factors, and the average person ain't got a clue. Like in the Matrix, they know something is wrong, but they cant put their finger on it...
They then do seek a store of value.. and generally follow the advice of more bullshit artists (in my view, others obviously disagree).. invest in stocks and various other semi-legal ponzi schemes; only cause like Milgram's experiment shown.. most people won't rock the boat... Thats okay, its their money and they are qutie entitled to disagree with me and do with their money what they want. As I am to think they are dumb. As they are to think I am nutty.
I never said Credit Default Swaps or Derivatives had antyhing to do with Inflation. Read the paragraph again. I said when they unravel, a Financial shitstorm will occur, and thsoe local communities with local currencies will better survive.
I am very aware Derivatives are allegedly designed (ha, ha) to mitigate risk! Like those geniuses at Long-Term Capital Management (LTCM)!!?? designed their financial bullshit artist instruments!
No, I never said that in a new world order there would be no risk. My views on stock markets and so on, are that they are not 100% TRANSPARENT... There will always be risk, BUT WHEN THERE IS NO TOTAL TRANSPARENCY... then that IS DUMBFUCK RISK that you are taking putting your money there... That is my view.. others of course disagree. No problem.
I am aware that risk leads to return, I ain't got a problem with honest and transparent risk, where if I invest in a particular company, I am not being shown a COOKED SET OF BOOKS! I got a problem with a lies and fraud and deceipt.
Viking: You originally said: People are smart, and won't accept the same price for something when they know inflation is afoot - that's why inflation gets out of control.
I thought that funny. Provided you with information that I thought (it justified for me) that inflation was afoot and has been for a while.
You ask why is that funny?
Simple: For the same reason I told my brother -- a builder -- a few years ago. DO NOT BUY A HOUSE NOW, DO NOT GET A MORTGAGE NOW.. HOUSE PRICES ARE WAY INFLATED, AND A HOUSING BUBBLE IS GOING TO POP BIG TIME. Put your money in gold, and when the housing market crashes (really), it ain't reached bottom yet... then you buy a house. He looked at me like I had landed in a UFO on his front lawn -- every housing estate agent he spoke to said 'buy now, prices will improve, you will make money'! He bought and got a mortgage worth more than the value of his house; and a building market going to hell in a handbasket!
You think people know inflation is afoot and won't buy things that they cannot afford?
That is why how many millions of people bought houses, and went into second mortgages to do so, to buy houses WAY OVERPRICED, and now owe more money on their mortgage, than their house is worth?
Were these people 'being bright' when it came to their money?
What about the dozens and dozens and dozens of brokers on Wall Street and elsewhere who were involved in the housing mortgage crisis, and didn't know what the hell they were doing; let alone thier clients?
The CEO's of Investment banks, who traded these 'financial instruments' based upon faulty ratings, by rating agencies?
The CEO'S who don't understand how these financial instruments worth BILLIONS WORK, yet hire young 20 year olds, to pretend they do, and play billions on gut instincts? Investing your money in one of these hedge funds, is 'bright'? If you think so, thats okay. I don't.
I'd be mroe than happy to provide you with excerpts of the various mortgage analysts, who made such allegations. Also derivatives traders who blew whistles on who knew what derivatives were, and whose clients knew what they were buying..
Let me know if you interested and I'll post the excerpts and links.
@Andrea. You are jumping around. So I need to address your comments one at a time.
Excessive inflation is widely accepted as not being good, just as much as deflation is not considered good. But inflation in the 0-3 percent range is fairly benign.
No I don't win my arguments by becoming insulting. That was not my intention. What I meant was that you are arguing your point with an aggressive zeal, and display a dogma that you and I dislike in others.
People may acknowledge that they live in an inflationary environment, but they very quickly adjust to that reality but changing their spending habits, or purchasing products that hold their value better, for example.
Who indoctrinated you into believing that the financial markets are one big Ponzi scheme?
Admittedly, markets are dependent on earnings and earnings are dependent on credit, and as long as that virtuous circle remains entact markets will expand. Is there a ceiling to earnings? Maybe, but innovation usually fuels further growth.
As for LTCM, what "financial bullshit artist instruments" are you talking about? They engaged in arbitrage using excessive leverage, and were fucked by the black swan. Did it threaten the financial system? Yes. However that is more a case of lax regulation. There needs to be a limit to the amount of leverage that can be applied, and we need to mark-to-market.
Your views on how markets work are plain wrong.
Markets work BECAUSE they are 100% transparent. Markets are so efficient that nobody (including the professionals) benefit from superior information. There is no superior information. Inside information is illegal, but even then the market reacts so fast that it is unlikley that more than a handful of people may benefit. Moreover, nobody should be investing in one company, that is stupid but by investing in many companies there is no risk of cooked books.
As regards knowing they need to make better choices since they are in an inflationary environment, and actually implementing a good strategy that is two different things.
Your last comment is more about poor strategy, rather than hedging against inflation. People could have known that houses were overvalued if they had chosen to do the research. Quite simple. House prices are a function of the income you can derive therefrom. That percentage should always exceed what you can earn on a fixed deposit (to keep it simple). If it doesn't you shouldn't be buying. There is slightly more to it, but the gist is that in the last few years the yield earnt on a property has been way to low to compensate for the risk of ownership.
As for hedge funds, shares, mortgages etc, again these are products in the pursuit of returns that hedge against inflation. This is related to strategy implementation.
@Vanilla Ice
thanks for the input. I also believe there is a difference between the theory of Capitalism, which is sound, and the specific instances of its abuse and the failure of regulators to keep the system stable and transparent. I don't think throwing the baby out with the bathwater is a good idea, and is a kneejerk reaction.
@Andrea
"You ask why is that funny?
Simple: For the same reason I told my brother -- a builder -- a few years ago........."
Are you saying you find it funny that your brother ended up with a massive mortgage he couldn't pay? I've tried to read this another way...
And, yes, I think people know inflation is afoot. You won't sell your car for R20,000 when you know people are selling similar ones for R40,000. That's where information comes in. And people are efficient at acquiring economic information nobody likes to be taken in.
@Andrea
I also think that with the financial scaremongering, you are going to fall into the classic Prophet's Dilemma; If you're wrong, you're a fraud, and if you're right - nobody care because they're too busy having a crisis!
Viking: No, I do not think it is funny my brother sat with a mortgage more than his house.
You said:
"People are not that dumb when it comes to money."
I disagreed. I gave you my brother as one example, for why I disagree. I gave you the example of millions of people who like rats following a pied piper, bought houses, now worth less than their mortgages. I think they were dumb with thier money. Millions of them.
I thought your statement that people are not dumb with their money was funny. That is why I thought it was funny, cause in my view, it ain't true.
I get that in your view, you think they are not dumb with thier money.
I agree to disagree.
As for 'where information comes in.' I agree. The point is, it depends on how deep you dig. Very many dig as far as the mainstream media for their news.
They know the mainstream media lies to them about 'K4'S (for example), but when it comes to the Stock Market, or the CIA, then the mainstream media are bastions of truth tellers.
If you dig how deep the current 'financial systems' information is and has been compromised, then you realise most of what the mainstream media tell you is BULLSHIT, about the markets, et al.
Millions are being taken in by that -- what I consider -- BULLSHIT.
They may tell themselves 'I don't like to be taken for a ride, as a dumbfuck sucker', but when it comes to digging a bit deeper to find out whether they are being screwed, they don't. So their story they spin themselves aobut not wanting to be suckered is SELF DELUSION.
Its what many or most of us did with 'TRUTH AND RECONCILIATON' cause we didnd't DIG DEEPER, we didn't ask UNCOMFORTABLE QUESTIONS..
VIKING: 'Financial Scaremongering'.
I share information for people to make up their own minds. I am not interested in being a 'prophet'; if or where the information provided is based on faulty thinking or facts.. then in sharing it, if those facts are provided then obviously the possible consequences may not occur and be avoided..
That is scientific exploration...
I am interested in FINDING REALITY whatever it may be in any given matter (this case economics)... not in being 'RIGHT'...
if the information shows commons sense to require going in a different direction.. I go...
The only person I want to care about me, is those woh sincerely do... I am not interested in people pretending to care. I'd rather have one person sincerely care about me, than millions pretending to care. I am lucky to adore and love one man who adores and loves me, and whom I am absolutely nuts about... Those stuck in their crisis, when it hits they were warned about, are not required to care, whatsoever.
Viking: A favourite Economics Reality Seeker (or if you prefer 'Doom Prophets'), quickly answers -- my view -- of your point.
For now, the “bottom” is in – that is, the bottom of this society’s ability to process reality. It may continue for a month or so, but events are underway that are beyond the command of personalities. We’re done “doing business” in all the ways that we’ve been used to, but we just can’t get with the new program. Let’s count the ways:
1. The revolving credit economy is over. It’s over because we can’t increase energy inputs to the system, which is one way of saying “peak oil.” Of course hardly anybody believes this right now because the price of oil crashed nine months ago, along with global manufacturing and trade. But nothing has changed on the peak oil scene – except perhaps that ever more new oil projects have been cancelled for lack of financing, which will boomerang on us (even if swine flu doesn’t) in the form of much lower future oil production. In any case, the credit fiesta is over, and the “consumer” economy with it, because industrial growth as we have known it is over. It’s over globally, too, though all regions of the world will not experience its demise the same way at the same rate.
The Asian nations may swap things around a while longer but China is basically up the creek without a paddle. They have less oil left than we have (which is saying, not much at all) and they won’t corner the rest of the global oil market without starting World War Three. Meanwhile, they’re running out of water and food. Good luck becoming the next global hegemon. Oh, and Japan imports 90 percent of its energy; India over 80 percent. Fuggeddabowdit.
A Permanent Credit Contraction.
About Viking's LEVERAGE... Think 'Shock Doctrine'.... and think 'Chaos to Order'.... and then you got the Shock Doctrine principle that when big shocks occur, generally it is those who have valid alternative ideas for possible solutions, in the 'public arena'.. in the 'thought space'.. that those are the ideas that are considered to 'respond to the 'crisis'...
Vanilla:
Re: Your views on how markets work are plain wrong..... Markets work BECAUSE they are 100% transparent. Markets are so efficient that nobody (including the professionals) benefit from superior information. There is no superior information. Inside information is illegal, but even then the market reacts so fast that it is unlikley that more than a handful of people may benefit. Moreover, nobody should be investing in one company, that is stupid but by investing in many companies there is no risk of cooked books.
One Quick Response on Simply the alleged 'Transparency of Federal Reserve/Central Bank' (will address other lack of transparency seperately):
I am very encouraged to see so many of my colleagues in Congress stand with me for greater transparency in government.
Some have begun to push back against this bill, and I am very happy to address their concerns.
The main argument seems to be that Congressional oversight over the Fed is government interference in the free market. This argument shows a misunderstanding of what a free market really is.
Fundamentally, you cannot defend the Federal Reserve and the free market at the same time. The Fed negates the very foundation of a free market by artificially manipulating the price and supply of money – the lifeblood of the economy. In a free market, interest rates, like the price of any other consumer good, are decentralized and set by the market. The only legitimate, Constitutional role of government in monetary policy is to protect the integrity of the monetary unit and defend against counterfeiters.
Instead, Congress has abdicated this responsibility to a cabal of elite, quasi-governmental banks who, instead of stabilizing the economy, have destabilized it. It took less than two decades for the Federal Reserve to bring on the Great Depression of the 1930’s. It has also inflated away the value of our currency by over 96 percent since its inception. It has invisibly stolen from the poor and given to the rich through this controlled inflation, and now openly stolen through recent bank bailouts. It has predictably exacerbated the very problems it was meant to solve.
Detractors have also argued that the Fed must remain immune from the political process, and that that more congressional oversight would distort their very important decisions. On the contrary, the Federal Reserve is already heavily entrenched in the political process, as the Fed chairman is a political appointee. High level officials routinely make the rounds between positions at the Fed, member banks, Treasury and back again, taking care of friends and each other along the way.
As far as the foolishness of placing complex monetary policy decisions in the hands of politicians – I couldn’t agree more. No politician or central banker, no matter how brilliant, is smart enough to know more than the market itself. The failure of central economic planning has been witnessed over and over. It is frankly beyond me why we ever agreed to try it again.
To understand how unwise it is to have the Federal Reserve, one must first understand the magnitude of the privileges they have. They have been given the power to create money, by the trillions, and to give it to their friends, under any terms they wish, with little or no meaningful oversight or accountability. Thus the loudest arguments against greater transparency are likely to come from those friends, and understandably so.
Ron Paul: Audit the Fed, Then End It!
Hi Andrea
I'm sorry, but when I read quotes that include the words "Fuggeddabowdit" and "zillions" I tend to switch off. Maybe I'm a snob.
But to answer your specific point, no I do NOT think people were "dumb" as you put it, to buy a house which subsequently devalued. they were just UNFORTUNATE. They needed a place to live, and you don't lose anything unless you sell it, don't forget. What people are prepared to spend each month on housing is what they will end up spending on a mortgage. Friends of mine own houses worth much less than their mortgages - they're not crying about it, they just can't move house for a while.
On another note, I am glad to hear you don't take it personally when a fellow contributor disagrees with you :)
Viking.
Don't know if you are a snob, imagine you just have an expectation of type of language you require, to take the person serious, I guess. I don't. I actually like white trash with Ph.D ideas (my interpretation).
Okay. Simplistically: You think they were 'unfortunate'; I think most were 'dumb', as a result of greed. Happy to agree to disagree.
On another note, I am glad to hear you don't take it personally when a fellow contributor disagrees with you :).
Not at all! Would be boring if we all agreed, is my view. As I said earlier, I'd rather someone disagreed and we can agree to disagree, than pretend agreement, and we live in a delusion, about our agreement that is not real, but we think it is.
@Andrea
people who buy houses are greedy?!?!
speculators maybe, but most of the people who have lost out are decent hard working people - I think we are talking about different people.
I am not referring to the US situation where subprime borrowers reneged on their debts, but the majority of homeowners in many Western countries (and SA) who happen to be in negative equity. That's a lot of young families too.
I agree, debate can be more important than agreement. My Scots-Irish half revels in it....
O, and yes I am an intellectual snob. I don't like stupid people. But on the linguistic front, I don't care if people don't use big words, as long as they use REAL words!
VI and Viking, I don't know why you're giving Andrea such a difficult time when all she's doing is trying to remind people that there is such a thing as "common sense".
It all boils down to this: if you want to fix the world, forget about making money and shun those for whom this is life's aim; love your own people and look after them, for we are naturally tribal and our responsibility is to our tribe and the area we inhabit, not other tribes or their areas!
Nationalist-socialism, the ONLY answer!
Anon
no-one is giving anyone a difficult time. Those who create posts have to take responsibility for what they say in the form of clarification if required by readers. It just so happens that a couple of us readers didn't agree with what was said.
Andrea does not mind answering questions, and I am sure she isn't offended in any way.
I think your comment is sensible, although nationalist-socialism sounds a lot like national socialism!
We are all in favour of common sense. But when the financial system we have disappoints us, throwing out the system is not the answer - there are already a lot of whines from the Marxist camp saying how we "need socialism" now, and how this is the ideal time to strike etc.
I don't think they need any more fuel for their fire.
Local Currencies to the rescue
Jct: From my blog at http://yahoogroups.com/group/turmel/message/3549
JCT: Couldn't help getting involved in this discussion:
Tape Worm Debt Slave Economy:
http://iluvsa.blogspot.com/2009/05/financial-secession-from-tape-worm.html
Tuesday, May 19, 2009
Financial Secession from the Tape Worm Debt Slave Economy: Local
Currencies
Posted By Andrea Murrhteyn at 5:44 AM
AM: Mitigation and Preparation for Peak Oil
Financially: Get out of Debt; Get Rid of Credit Cards, or use
them as Monthly Debit Cards, paid off in full.
Relocalize Money/Change the Way Money Works: Participate in Local
Currencies
Shop Locally wherever Possible: Secede from Addiction to the
MultiNational Debt Slavery Tape Worm Economy
Support Local Farming: Buy Local, Get involved in a Local Farmers
Market; or Start Your own Home or Community Vegetable Garden.
All of the above actions, are actions whereby you are directly or
indirectly Financially Seceding from the Financial Tape Worm Debt
Slavery Economy. Baby Steps to Financial Secession.
JCT: All of the above happen when you "participate in local
currencies."
10 more pages at my blog.
Viking: All good points well taken(esp. the one about certain opportunistic ideologies), it just appeared that some of her points weren't being debated as much as ridiculed, but I love reading what everyone has to say as it always makes you think, even if some talk about organisations like the Fed. and BOE without even knowing that they're privately owned (ie. confusing them with the old SA Reserve Bank which was actually owned by the Nation).
Thanks for the reply though, all good!
Viking: It helps if those who pretend being in favour of Common Sense, Practice What they Preach; otherwise they be more 'Common Sense in Name Only' Pretenders?
I am a libertarian; I favour the Austrian School of Economics; True Free Market Economics, not this Keynesian Fake Pretender Free Market Stuff, SocialistCapitalism.
I notice those who favour the latter, appear to have no problems with how it is creeping further towards Centralized Socialism; and any criticims thereof, by any Libertarian, is called 'throwing the baby out with the Bath water'.
BULLSHIT BROTHER!
If these 'Free Market' Pretenders were out there making sure their Socialized Free Market, was 100% TRANSPARENT, and spoke up when it was not, and did not PRETNED THAT IT CURRENTLY IS; then they would hold the economic system they hold so dear, accountable. When they act like the three monkeys, they MUST EXPECT CRITICISM, not only from LIBERTARIANS, BUT ALSO SOCIALISTS! And if they then just want to put hteir heads in the sand, what kind of common sense is that?
Daily Paul Forum:
Finance & Economics:
Secession Networking: Cape Republic of Good Hope
@Andrea. What an utter load of crap. You barely disguise your contempt for the existing system or its supporters, instead you trot out half-baked conspiracy theories under the guise of common sense. Whose common sense? What I would like to know is why do you have a penchant for such marginalised views on so many diverse topics? Do you believe that the entire world, and its myriad systems are all just conspiracies? Who is "they" that you refer to? A group of elderly white men huddled in a smoke filled room, plotting how to fuck things up so they can have all the gravy for themselves? As one of our readers keeps telling us, perhaps it is the Rothchilds again. I still agree with Viking that we need to guard against throwing the baby out with the bath water. Government intervention is necessary to regulate markets, but this is not socialism, and certainly not reason enough to abandon the existing system. Feel free to have the last word on this.
Vanilla: Pity what you know about AUSTRIAN SCHOOL OF ECONOMICS (LIBERTARIAN ECONOMICS) is ZERO!
Until you do, may I suggest you don't pretend you do.
You are only making a fool of yourself. That's okay, I often make a fool of myself, but I do so consciously.
Would you prefer I pretend that my ideas are not what they are? Why don't you debate my ideas, the information I provided? Instead all you appear to want to do, is insult me, call me names and fling mud?
When I provide you with information from insider experts, you call that 'shoving reams in your face'?
Hello? Vanilla? If you want to hold a serious discussion about any topic, and soemone else takes you seriously, with a differing point of view; then you are going to be expected to read their information. If not, DON'T FUCKING PRETEND YOU WERE INTERSETED IN A DEBATE, CAUSE THE ONLY PERSON YOU ARE BULLSHITTING IS YOURSELF!
No problem, we all do that at times... As I said, if you don't want to read the information provided, and discuss it, point by point.. that is okay.
If you want to fling mud.. fine; YOUR CHOICE.
@Andrea
I am pretty sure that VI hasn't insulted you or "flung mud". I do recall being called butthead by your good self and raising no objection, as I took the accompanying smiley-face as a sign of your good will.
"if you start a local currency pegged to the National Currency; what do you imagine would be the factors to consider in unpegging it from 'RANDS' and repegging it to a Time Based Currency System?"
Jct: Just print both the Hour value and the national value. EG:
1 Ithaca Hour = 10 US greendollars
1 Ottawa Hour = 12 CA greendolalrs
1 Paris Hour = 60 FR greenfrancs
1 Berlin Hour = 20 DE greenmarks
1 London Hour = 6 UK greenpounds
Even if next year, you end up printing 1 Hour = 11 US and then next year 1 Hour = 12 US, and then the next 1 Hour = 13 US, it doesn't matter how much the national currency loses value, the time-based note is always worth the time stated.
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